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    You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by AndresEscobar on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:08 pm

    Heroine wrote:Well if they were indeed asleep when it happened wouldn't it have to be considered premeditated anyway. I mean if they were all asleep, how could it be anything else? How can sleeping people do anything to harm or piss you off if they are asleep?
    To be anything other than premeditated, wouldn't something have had to
    happened? This is a question by the way.
    I must be because I keep quoting myself and then having to delete it rather than editing....

    The sleeping is the strongest evidence of premeditation. There are ways where it wouldn't be premeditated murder still: the "finding a text message' theory, maybe he was talking online to someone and they told him all about what Emma was saying, etc. If they were all indeed sleeping, which we don't know for a fact, it doesn't look that good for Sam.
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    ziggy

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:09 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    ziggy wrote:Not for a fact, no, but I am making a presumption on the circumstances that we do know.

    Wood mauls are usually kept outside near the wood pile and that since it was one of the weapons used it came into the house by someone's hand. The person bringing the wood maul into the home would do so for a purpose and since the purpose was not to use it to chop wood indoors, I would presume that it was to use in the OTHER manner in which it is known that it was used and used by the person who did inflict the blows with it.
    Any other scenarios that make more sense? Hit me.


    Emma and Mel, like Sam and other SKR members, like posing for pictures with weapons.

    You KNOW they were posing for pictures with the maul? I kid, I kid.

    LOL, that was a good scenario there mister. Game on!
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by AndresEscobar on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:13 pm

    ziggy wrote:
    AndresEscobar wrote:
    ziggy wrote:Not for a fact, no, but I am making a presumption on the circumstances that we do know.

    Wood mauls are usually kept outside near the wood pile and that since it was one of the weapons used it came into the house by someone's hand. The person bringing the wood maul into the home would do so for a purpose and since the purpose was not to use it to chop wood indoors, I would presume that it was to use in the OTHER manner in which it is known that it was used and used by the person who did inflict the blows with it.
    Any other scenarios that make more sense? Hit me.


    Emma and Mel, like Sam and other SKR members, like posing for pictures with weapons.

    You KNOW they were posing for pictures with the maul? I kid, I kid.

    LOL, that was a good scenario there mister. Game on!

    I'm just pointing out that we don't know how or where he got the maul.
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    Percy
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by Percy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:18 pm

    I could reasonably argue that a wood maul and ball peen hammer would have been kept in Emma's room since both are favored weapons of horrocore artists and fans.


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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by Percy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:21 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    Heroine wrote:Well if they were indeed asleep when it happened wouldn't it have to be considered premeditated anyway. I mean if they were all asleep, how could it be anything else? How can sleeping people do anything to harm or piss you off if they are asleep?
    To be anything other than premeditated, wouldn't something have had to
    happened? This is a question by the way.
    I must be because I keep quoting myself and then having to delete it rather than editing....

    The sleeping is the strongest evidence of premeditation. There are ways where it wouldn't be premeditated murder still: the "finding a text message' theory, maybe he was talking online to someone and they told him all about what Emma was saying, etc. If they were all indeed sleeping, which we don't know for a fact, it doesn't look that good for Sam.

    If I were defending him I would argue, assuming the evidence supports it, that he found the text msgs while they were asleep since this would be the most reasonable time to snoop through Emma's phone, went in to a fit of rage and killed them, no premeditation.


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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:21 pm

    Yes that's a good point; they hang hatchets on the wall. Will there be any way to determine something like this? The witnesses are all dead.
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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by AndresEscobar on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:23 pm

    Paximus wrote:I could reasonably argue that a wood maul and ball peen hammer would have been kept in Emma's room since both are favored weapons of horrocore artists and fans.

    Also, I think he had to have at least been made aware of the maul at some point. Why would he pass many, many potential murder weapons in the house to go outside to a shed or something to search for something that he doesn't know is there?
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by Percy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:23 pm

    ziggy wrote:Yes that's a good point; they hang hatchets on the wall. Will there be any way to determine something like this? The witnesses are all dead.

    Its very unlikely anyone will know for sure which favors the defense and reasonable doubt or at least any argument against premeditation.

    All I am saying is if I am his lawyer I am going to have pictures of horrocore artists using mauls, hatchets etc as props and pictures of fans easily found on myspace keeping such things in their room.


    Last edited by Paximus on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:25 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:24 pm

    Them? Emma, OK I could give you that one. Mel - maybe, depending upon her participation in the texting. But let's say Debra is the one upstairs. We are getting further away from sudden heat of passion with the person upstairs.
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by AndresEscobar on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:26 pm

    ziggy wrote:Them? Emma, OK I could give you that one. Mel - maybe, depending upon her participation in the texting. But let's say Debra is the one upstairs. We are getting further away from sudden heat of passion with the person upstairs.

    First one of the girls, the other wakes and screams then is killed. Debra hears the scream, comes to the room and gets a face full of maul.

    ETA: the other one doesn't have to wake.


    Last edited by AndresEscobar on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:28 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    Paximus wrote:I could reasonably argue that a wood maul and ball peen hammer would have been kept in Emma's room since both are favored weapons of horrocore artists and fans.

    Also, I think he had to have at least been made aware of the maul at some point. Why would he pass many, many potential murder weapons in the house to go outside to a shed or something to search for something that he doesn't know is there?

    He is made aware of the maul by the mere fact he has been at the house for a week and certainly has been in the back yard during that time. It is very similar to an axe and he likes the wicked look of an axe per the Syko Sam photos. It's possible he just believes that is the ultimate weapon to use on a person, so when he thinks of killing, he thinks of the axe/maul.

    I can see him being aware of the maul more so than the hammer. Unless someone kept the hammer around for self defense? I know a few women who keep them in their rooms for that.
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by Percy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:29 pm

    ziggy wrote:Them? Emma, OK I could give you that one. Mel - maybe, depending upon her participation in the texting. But let's say Debra is the one upstairs. We are getting further away from sudden heat of passion with the person upstairs.

    I do recall reading somewhere where Sam said Emma's mom was always watching them so they wouldnt have sex, so she was probably killed, MAYBE killed, right around the same time after she stuck her head in the room to make sure they werent fucking et al.


    Last edited by Paximus on Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:37 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by AndresEscobar on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:30 pm

    ziggy wrote:
    AndresEscobar wrote:
    Paximus wrote:I could reasonably argue that a wood maul and ball peen hammer would have been kept in Emma's room since both are favored weapons of horrocore artists and fans.

    Also, I think he had to have at least been made aware of the maul at some point. Why would he pass many, many potential murder weapons in the house to go outside to a shed or something to search for something that he doesn't know is there?

    He is made aware of the maul by the mere fact he has been at the house for a week and certainly has been in the back yard during that time. It is very similar to an axe and he likes the wicked look of an axe per the Syko Sam photos. It's possible he just believes that is the ultimate weapon to use on a person, so when he thinks of killing, he thinks of the axe/maul.

    I can see him being aware of the maul more so than the hammer. Unless someone kept the hammer around for self defense? I know a few women who keep them in their rooms for that.

    So, he just has a sixth sense that makes him aware of the existence and location of mauls?
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:31 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    ziggy wrote:Them? Emma, OK I could give you that one. Mel - maybe, depending upon her participation in the texting. But let's say Debra is the one upstairs. We are getting further away from sudden heat of passion with the person upstairs.

    First one of the girls, the other wakes and screams then is killed. Debra hears the scream, comes to the room and gets a face full of maul.

    Then whose body is upstairs??? I figure the upstairs person must be in bed, otherwise the carpet or flooring would have had to have been replaced for the reasons Atlantica said it had to be replaced in the downstairs portion of the house. At least one body downstairs was on the floor and the decay did permanent damage. Sam is not going to drag anyone upstairs imo.
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:32 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    ziggy wrote:
    AndresEscobar wrote:
    Paximus wrote:I could reasonably argue that a wood maul and ball peen hammer would have been kept in Emma's room since both are favored weapons of horrocore artists and fans.

    Also, I think he had to have at least been made aware of the maul at some point. Why would he pass many, many potential murder weapons in the house to go outside to a shed or something to search for something that he doesn't know is there?

    He is made aware of the maul by the mere fact he has been at the house for a week and certainly has been in the back yard during that time. It is very similar to an axe and he likes the wicked look of an axe per the Syko Sam photos. It's possible he just believes that is the ultimate weapon to use on a person, so when he thinks of killing, he thinks of the axe/maul.

    I can see him being aware of the maul more so than the hammer. Unless someone kept the hammer around for self defense? I know a few women who keep them in their rooms for that.

    So, he just has a sixth sense that makes him aware of the existence and location of mauls?
    No he has eyes. When he or they to out to the backyard to smoke, there it is. You think he never went into the backyard in the entire week he stayed there?
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by Percy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:32 pm

    I think the Pastor is upstairs, he comes, he knocks, no answer, he uses his key to get in and calls out for Debra, no answer, checks kitchen then goes upstairs to check her bedroom, Sam follows and whacks him in the bedroom.


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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:33 pm

    By the way I DO have a sixth sense in the location and existence of malls.
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by Percy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:34 pm

    ziggy wrote:By the way I DO have a sixth sense in the location and existence of malls.
    Mallrats, good film.


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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by AndresEscobar on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:34 pm

    ziggy wrote:
    AndresEscobar wrote:
    ziggy wrote:Them? Emma, OK I could give you that one. Mel - maybe, depending upon her participation in the texting. But let's say Debra is the one upstairs. We are getting further away from sudden heat of passion with the person upstairs.

    First one of the girls, the other wakes and screams then is killed. Debra hears the scream, comes to the room and gets a face full of maul.

    Then whose body is upstairs??? I figure the upstairs person must be in bed, otherwise the carpet or flooring would have had to have been replaced for the reasons Atlantica said it had to be replaced in the downstairs portion of the house. At least one body downstairs was on the floor and the decay did permanent damage. Sam is not going to drag anyone upstairs imo.

    I thought at least one of our locals said at some point the female bodies were all located in one area. Marks could have been the one downstairs (or upstairs).

    Then again, we really don't know where the bodies were, do we?
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:35 pm

    Paximus wrote:I think the Pastor is upstairs, he comes, he knocks, no answer, he uses his key to get in and calls out for Debra, no answer, checks kitchen then goes upstairs to check her bedroom, Sam follows and whacks him in the bedroom.

    Ahhh, that's what I used to think BUT, then he would have fallen on the floor, see? And he was messed up pretty badly by what Atlantica said regarding his funeral and that, in turn, would have messed up the floor upstairs - but there was no replacement of flooring or carpet upstairs.
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by Percy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:37 pm

    ziggy wrote:
    Paximus wrote:I think the Pastor is upstairs, he comes, he knocks, no answer, he uses his key to get in and calls out for Debra, no answer, checks kitchen then goes upstairs to check her bedroom, Sam follows and whacks him in the bedroom.

    Ahhh, that's what I used to think BUT, then he would have fallen on the floor, see? And he was messed up pretty badly by what Atlantica said regarding his funeral and that, in turn, would have messed up the floor upstairs - but there was no replacement of flooring or carpet upstairs.


    That we know of. Could be hardwood parquet, a mop would clean it.


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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:38 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    ziggy wrote:
    AndresEscobar wrote:
    ziggy wrote:Them? Emma, OK I could give you that one. Mel - maybe, depending upon her participation in the texting. But let's say Debra is the one upstairs. We are getting further away from sudden heat of passion with the person upstairs.

    First one of the girls, the other wakes and screams then is killed. Debra hears the scream, comes to the room and gets a face full of maul.

    Then whose body is upstairs??? I figure the upstairs person must be in bed, otherwise the carpet or flooring would have had to have been replaced for the reasons Atlantica said it had to be replaced in the downstairs portion of the house. At least one body downstairs was on the floor and the decay did permanent damage. Sam is not going to drag anyone upstairs imo.

    I thought at least one of our locals said at some point the female bodies were all located in one area. Marks could have been the one downstairs (or upstairs).

    Then again, we really don't know where the bodies were, do we?

    I have looked at all the various reports and the only consistent thing is that 3 bodies were found in the same room downstairs and one body was upstairs. There was never a definite mention that all three women were in the downstairs room. Atlantica said Mark's body was the one on the floor downstairs that cause the damage. She must have known he was downstairs. That leaves Mel and Emma in Emma's downstairs room which makes sense and Debra up in her room IN BED, hence no floor damage.
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by AndresEscobar on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:39 pm

    ziggy wrote:
    AndresEscobar wrote:
    ziggy wrote:
    AndresEscobar wrote:
    Paximus wrote:I could reasonably argue that a wood maul and ball peen hammer would have been kept in Emma's room since both are favored weapons of horrocore artists and fans.

    Also, I think he had to have at least been made aware of the maul at some point. Why would he pass many, many potential murder weapons in the house to go outside to a shed or something to search for something that he doesn't know is there?

    He is made aware of the maul by the mere fact he has been at the house for a week and certainly has been in the back yard during that time. It is very similar to an axe and he likes the wicked look of an axe per the Syko Sam photos. It's possible he just believes that is the ultimate weapon to use on a person, so when he thinks of killing, he thinks of the axe/maul.

    I can see him being aware of the maul more so than the hammer. Unless someone kept the hammer around for self defense? I know a few women who keep them in their rooms for that.

    So, he just has a sixth sense that makes him aware of the existence and location of mauls?
    No he has eyes. When he or they to out to the backyard to smoke, there it is. You think he never went into the backyard in the entire week he stayed there?

    So, the Maul is just laying outside in the backyard in your scenario? Not a good way to take care of your tools. Regardless, it seems doubtful to me that he scoped out a maul in the backyard then passed all sorts of murder weapons to get it.

    I bet, at the very least, he and Emma messed around with it at some point.
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:40 pm

    Paximus wrote:
    ziggy wrote:
    Paximus wrote:I think the Pastor is upstairs, he comes, he knocks, no answer, he uses his key to get in and calls out for Debra, no answer, checks kitchen then goes upstairs to check her bedroom, Sam follows and whacks him in the bedroom.

    Ahhh, that's what I used to think BUT, then he would have fallen on the floor, see? And he was messed up pretty badly by what Atlantica said regarding his funeral and that, in turn, would have messed up the floor upstairs - but there was no replacement of flooring or carpet upstairs.


    That we know of. Could be hardwood parquet, a mop would clean it.

    You mean they have fake wood floors upstairs??? Read the auction flyer. I don't think that is mentioned.
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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by AndresEscobar on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:41 pm

    ziggy wrote:

    I have looked at all the various reports and the only consistent thing is that 3 bodies were found in the same room downstairs and one body was upstairs. There was never a definite mention that all three women were in the downstairs room. Atlantica said Mark's body was the one on the floor downstairs that cause the damage. She must have known he was downstairs. That leaves Mel and Emma in Emma's downstairs room which makes sense and Debra up in her room IN BED, hence no floor damage.

    All murders don't cause the floor to be replaced. Because it wasn't does not mean she was in bed.

    Also, in this scenario, Emma, Mel, and Mark are all in the same room?

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