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    THE MURDER OF EMMA,MEL AND DEBRA

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    claudicici

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    THE MURDER OF EMMA,MEL AND DEBRA

    Post by claudicici on Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:11 am

    ....data dump only.No discussions please....
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    claudicici

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    Re: THE MURDER OF EMMA,MEL AND DEBRA

    Post by claudicici on Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:48 pm

    Emma had the front bedroom, left side of the house. I believe the girls were killed in their sleep. Premediated. I think the preacher was killed in the living room. I think Mom was killed in the study. Just a guess.
    Oh, and by the way,
    The only way to get to the basement is thru the kitchen. Kitchen is in the very back of the house where you see the patio area
    If the police came to the front door the bodies were sealed off in the other part of the house. The smaller house, other side of the breezeway. The part where Emma's bedroom was.
    When you walk in to the front door you are in the living room. You walk to the right are the dining room, breakfast nook and then the kitchen.
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    claudicici

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    Re: THE MURDER OF EMMA,MEL AND DEBRA

    Post by claudicici on Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:59 pm

    I recall one detective saying that the room the females were found in was a seperate area from the main house seperated by what he called in his words, "a sort of BREEZEWAY" this would imply to me that it may have been a small GUEST HOUSE and that was likely where Emma lived. When the cops came in to the main house they immediately went upstairs to check bedrooms, then after realized there was a guest house and thats where the females were. IMO and from what I have read.


    This also suggests that Emma and Mel were possibly killed first in their little seperated guest house and when mom came back the next morning maybe to check on them Sam blindsided her. This is also why the cops didnt smell anything when they came to the mainhouse and checked the basement.

    When Dad came over he saw Debs van in the driveway went in and called out and she didnt answer so he went upstairs to what was probably moms bedroom to see if she was in there, Sam sneaked up behind him up there and whacked him.
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    claudicici

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    Re: THE MURDER OF EMMA,MEL AND DEBRA

    Post by claudicici on Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:14 pm

    Yea I cant figure out if he means it wasnt a slaughterhouse or there were no occult/ritual aspects.

    On the surface it appears to be he is taking issue with Rimers comments that the place was a slaughterhouse, but if the bodies were beaten with a maul it was indeed a slaughterhouse.

    He is obviously trying to protect the memories of Debras parents so they dont have to hear how bad it was, he has an agenda, a good one, but I dont think we can believe him because of it.
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    Re: THE MURDER OF EMMA,MEL AND DEBRA

    Post by claudicici on Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:16 pm

    Indeed it's kind of hard to imagine how bodies can be bludgeoned beyond identification with a maul (the weight of that thing would cause some serious projecting stuff I don't like to think about) without it looking like a slaughterhouse. If you've got four dead people all violently bludgeoned, that's a slaughterhouse right there.

    Then the officers see a bunch of upside down crosses and SKR stuff in the room where the bodies are and they make a leap - or - Sam really did "arrange things" to look ritualistic. dunno. Time will tell, but you can't fault the cops for thinking what they did when they happened upon that mess.

    Now perhaps that meat cleaver was in Emma's room as a decoration. You can see hatchets hanging on the walls in some of the photos of the friends and even Sam's as wicked decor, I guess.

    Maybe there was no need to rustle on up from the kitchen.

    Also, I found myself laughing out loud at a post that was in one of NativeGirl's links that went to some Vampire Freak messge board. The poster was commenting on how sick the murders were, how sick people are these days and asked, "what's going on in the world nowadays with all these sick people?".............this from someone who belongs to Vampire Freak - uh, hello?
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    claudicici

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    Re: THE MURDER OF EMMA,MEL AND DEBRA

    Post by claudicici on Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:17 pm

    On the other hand Rimer has an agenda too. He wants to sell the occult angle because it makes him more famous and opens the door to some consulting $$$.
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    Re: THE MURDER OF EMMA,MEL AND DEBRA

    Post by claudicici on Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:51 pm

    Maybe Sam slept in the main house's upstairs guest room, near Debra's room. Maybe he killed her first, in her sleep, and dragged the body down to Mel and Emma in Emma's room....

    Just pondering. I do think it plausible that he slept up there. Emma would want to be in her own room, with Mel. The only other bedroom, seemingly, is that guest room, if there are no bedrooms upstairs from Emma's. Sam was there for a long stay. He'd get a room.
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    Re: THE MURDER OF EMMA,MEL AND DEBRA

    Post by claudicici on Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:52 pm

    Yes, I think it is safe to assume the place was a slaughterhouse AND there was a lot of occult **** all over Emma's room, but the occult stuff didnt play a role in the murders, that is to say, Sam probably didnt draw anything in blood on the walls but surely Emma had pentagrams and likely a meatcleaver with fake blood hanging on her walls in her bedroom.

    The relative wants to downplay all of this obviously because it is upsetting for the rest of the family to hear it and Rimer wants to play up the occult connection, even though it was just Emma's basic room decor, because it makes him famous, earns him money and gets all the Christians in to a frenzy.
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    Re: THE MURDER OF EMMA,MEL AND DEBRA

    Post by claudicici on Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:54 pm

    Don't forget the dog or dogs locked in the basement. They may have alerted Mom something was wrong. She went to see what was up and bingo. I doubt they were normally kept in the basement.
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    Re: THE MURDER OF EMMA,MEL AND DEBRA

    Post by claudicici on Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:20 am

    OK now here's more K0rnfusion from my brain:

    The maul was collected from the kitchen. Supposedly the maul was used in all the killings. Mark was found LAST, upstairs...he could not have been in the kitchen - right - because the police had to enter the basement from the kitchen. His body had to have been upstairs in the main part of the house.

    Mark had arrived sometime Thursday afternoon/early evening and was already dead when the officer arrived that night at 11:58 p.m. and Sam told them everyone was at the movies.

    Then two officers come back - and the maul is found in the kitchen, and the door to the basement is in the kitchen...just saying it was handy in case he was thinking of offing a cop.

    So now, how come there would be a chunk of wood involved in Mark's bludgeoning if he was upstairs? Was there a fireplace upstairs in the master bedroom? Sam could have told Mark, they're upstairs then followed him up and as soon as poor Mark entered an empty room and turned around, bam. But would he really grab a chunk of wood? Maybe the maul was still in another room when he went after Mark and the chunk of wood only knocked him out so Sam had to go get a better weapon.

    So, the three women are in Emma's room. The cops finally smell something - enter, find the three bodies and then go get a search warrant and upon their return, warrant in hand, they discover Mark.

    The only way I see Debra ending up in Emma's room is that she was killed there, but it says the three women were either asleep or in an otherwise defenseless position. Good grief at first I thought that infered she too was killed in her sleep, but now I see "otherwise defenseless" differently. Debra wasn't asleep in there, she was probably just ambushed so quickly, no time to react, no defensive wounds.

    So I think the girls were killed first and if done in their sleep, that's premeditation all the way. Then Debra - she came in - murder 1 on her too and also on Mark. They way I see it, if there's a grain of truth to his comment to the cab driver about waiting for her to fall asleep (see Casey Anthony and the law of half truths, lol) and then leaving, he waited for the girls to fall asleep and then went on his vicious rampage. I wonder how much time lapsed between the killing of the girls and Debra and I wonder what Sam did during THAT time.

    Whether he knew Mark was coming 20 minutes before or saw him drive up, he obviously intended to kill him.

    Motive? I think he was really mad at Mel and Emma ~ something brought out a deep rage in him and I'm pretty sure it has to do with rejection. After he killed them, I am imagining that he felt a sense of power he had never experienced before, that God-like power some killers say they feel. He then thought either he was just a bad ass mofo and what the hell...I am going to kill them all, or he felt he needed to feel the power of killing again.

    The call to the police to come over is still bugging the crap out of me.

    sources:
    http://www.nbc12.com/Global/story.asp?S=11445452

    According to this search warrant, 98 items were recovered from Debra Kelley's home including a stained ball-peen hammer from a front bedroom and a wood splitting maul from the kitchen. All four victims were bludgeoned. Three of the four bodies were found in a bedroom.


    http://www.wtvr.com/news/wtvr-farmville-indictments-continued,0,1321614.story

    As CBS 6 reported two weeks ago, the key murder weapon was a wood-cutting maul., which was found – stained – in the kitchen. The stained knife was found in a bedroom and a ball peen hammer – no stains noted by police was found in another bedroom.
    The documents indicate all three female victims were found in one bedroom.


    http://www.quoterelish.com/quote/16371499/Stabbing-and-stabbing-till-theres-nothing-left-McCroskey-sings-in-My-Dark-Side.-McCroskey-will

    “officers initially discovered only three bodies in the house, then left to get a search warrant before returning and finding the fourth ”
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    claudicici

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    Re: THE MURDER OF EMMA,MEL AND DEBRA

    Post by claudicici on Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:15 am

    The problem I have with the maul as murder weapon doesn't have anything to do with whether Sam could swing it. It's not the swing that I think he couldn't handle, although I doubt if he could swing it with any accuracy or actually split wood with it, he could certainly do some serious damage to any part of a person. The recovery time is the issue. It seems to me that if an attacker were attempting to kill 3 different people, speed of attack would be very important. Recovery time after a blow would be critical if speed of attack were necessary.

    Look at a maul and how it is used. A typical maul is about 3' long with a straight wooden handle and a 5 to 8 lb. iron or steel wedge shaped head on one end. If it were held by the end away from the head, there would be 24 foot pounds of torque to resist. That's a considerable amount and even someone with very very strong wrist is unlikely to be able to do it and couldn't swing it that way.

    To overcome the forces working against him, a user starts a swing with one hand near the end away from the head and the other just below the head. He or she pulls the head close to the body, pushes up and lets the head fall forward while sliding the head hand towards the other. The head hand is pushing and the other is pulling and that leverage helps to accelerate the head along with the acceleration due to gravity. As the hands get closer together, the head reaches maximum acceleration just before impact.

    The head stops relatively abruptly with a great deal of force since force = acceleration x mass and the acceleration which just took place over about 2-3 seconds has been decelerated in a tiny fraction of a second. At that point, the user is back to the position of having both hands at the end and being out of control of the other end. To make things worse, the users arms are extended and the wrists are rotated forward, putting him/her at maximum disadvantage in terms of leverage and the head may be stuck in something (use your imagination here). The complete cycle depends on how quickly the user can then move back into position to lift and swing again and the strength of the user and muscle fatigue have to be factored in. Most non-professionals can hardly repeatedly swing a 22oz. framing hammer with a handle length of 16-18" (just over 2 foot pounds of torque) and hitting nails even helps since the hammer bounces to some extent rather than being stuck.

    I just don't think Sam had it in him to attack in the first round with a maul. I may well be proven to be wrong I know, but compare Sam to Kuriuz for example. Pixy noted that he is much more appealing than Sam. Part of that is no doubt his blue eyes, but his upright posture and broad round muscular shoulders are a significant part of it and they are in stark contrast to Sam's. The question of how long it took for Sam to lose his appeal upon arrival in Richmond was raised earlier and the general conclusion was that happened almost instantly. Not bathing probably played a role, but that immediate reaction is as much as anything related to body language and posture which are apparent even in the pictures the people making those comment have seen and been influenced by.

    Sam may have had shackles on his feet when he made the walk up to the "Jesus told me to" comment, but regardless, just look at his body form, the way his legs move and his shoulders. He is neither strong nor fit, that shows over and over in photos of him, and makes sense for a kid who spends all of his time in a garage listening to awful music. I do however think he could do some serious damage with a ball-peen especially with too much caffeine surging through his system. I've got 4 different sizes in my basement right now, and I don't think anyone here would let me hit them in the head with the smallest. The ball-peen is close to the hatchet in form, grip, and size, and we know Sam had a thing for hatchets. Also, the maul is consistent if I read correctly. All victims were hit with the maul, but only Mr. Neiderbrock was killed with the chunk of wood? Please correct me if any reliable sources say otherwise. That leads me to believe that the maul was used in round 2 and not round 1. If the maul wasn't used on Mr. Neiderbrock, then that leads to a few other questions.

    Sorry for such a long post, but I just wanted to make my reasoning clear whether it convinces anyone else or not.
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    Re: THE MURDER OF EMMA,MEL AND DEBRA

    Post by claudicici on Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:26 pm

    Is it possible the young girls were passed out from being high or drunk and never knew what hit them? This would explain the lack of defensive wounds, lack of alarm and ease that this crime was committed.
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    Re: THE MURDER OF EMMA,MEL AND DEBRA

    Post by claudicici on Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:53 pm

    From the facts of the case, info from pixy and others, as well as personal experience, this is what I think transpired:

    I think Sam and Emma had a falling out, due to his jealousy of her talking to other guys (It seems she had several "guy friends"), before SFTW. It also seems Sam was wanting to start a new chapter; but, being 16, she wasn't. They tried to just make the best of it and all went anyway.

    Now, at SFTW Mel and her are having a blast and Emma is "talking" to this performer. Sam's hurt/jealous reaction was to make out with some other girl, just as a big **** you to Emma. I think this is when the fuse was lit, but not any violent thoughts.

    From the trip back until the start of the murders, I'm sure Sam was shut out/ignored maybe even ridiculed by both the girls (just going off what I've seen with teen girls).

    He hasn't left because he's trying to win back Emma imo (he's "determined" on myspace). When she doesn't respond positively (she's getting high but has a frownie face); and then he sees the messages with this other guy and he flips out.

    I'm sure in his mind there's no turning back at this point. He has no "home" to go to. He's been fighting with his family, dad told him not to come back and now Emma's taking away the only other "home" he's ever had. On top of that Mel's helping her do it (again, in his mind). I'm sure he bludgeoned them (Emma first), to a degree none of us can even fathom at this point, as they slept, probably in close proximity to each other.

    The mother would have been next. I imagine he ambushed her; either when she came in after hearing the commotion, or, the next morning. I figure hammer first.

    Then he would've ambushed the father when he came to check on them. I figure maul first and then his rage towards his own father came out.


    I apologize for the length, but another thought:

    The way they were killed shows me that Sam's lyrics in no way show he has killed before. He's not the type to kill someone while looking them in the face. He's too cowardly for that. He has to ambush them defenseless.
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    Re: THE MURDER OF EMMA,MEL AND DEBRA

    Post by Percy on Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:18 pm

    I recall earlier in the case there was talk that he used a "chunk of wood" to possibly kill Mark but I have not heard that discussed at all since real early on in the case, what do we know of that or am I imagining things?


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    claudicici

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    Re: THE MURDER OF EMMA,MEL AND DEBRA

    Post by claudicici on Mon May 03, 2010 4:22 am

    Originally Posted by AndresEscobar
    Maybe you're not getting my point: he could have not killed the those people up until he killed them, do you get what I'm saying? He could have decided to kill them all, but he had every opportunity to stop until he killed them.

    Say tonight I decide to hit someone. I have up until the moment I actually hit them to change my mind. Its fractions of a second between committing a crime and just going home.

    Yeah, I understood. But he didn't just make "a" horrible split second decision. According to your rationale he would've made four separate horrible split second decisions.

    What it amounts to is he brutally killed four individuals, two likely at the same approximate time, one slightly earlier/later, and one a couple days later.

    And sure, every time he killed it was a split second decision where he could've changed his mind, but he didn't. In fact it appears rather premediatated, at least on two of the occasions. But to act like this was just one split second decision is rather lame.
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    Re: THE MURDER OF EMMA,MEL AND DEBRA

    Post by claudicici on Mon May 03, 2010 4:36 am

    Originally Posted by Wes
    Yeah, I understood. But he didn't just make "a" horrible split second decision. According to your rationale he would've made four separate horrible split second decisions.

    What it amounts to is he brutally killed four individuals, two likely at the same approximate time, one slightly earlier/later, and one a couple days later.

    And sure, every time he killed it was a split second decision where he could've changed his mind. But to act like this was just one split second decision is rather lame.

    It might be lame to you, but most violent offenders I deal with get stuck in bad situations that snowball based on bad decisions.

    If Sam just leaves the house instead of killing the girls, no one gets hurt and everyone's lives are different.
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    Re: THE MURDER OF EMMA,MEL AND DEBRA

    Post by claudicici on Sun May 23, 2010 4:35 am

    Rumor


    I work with a local Farmvillian girl who claims to be friends with the DA and she said that one of the girls escaped outside and Sam had to run outside to chase her down and kill her...and then ran back in to film the other two women die. It's a total rumor....but I work w/ her on a daily basis and she claims that's why the police tape was initially put around the perimiter of the yard...make of it what u will....oh btw im drunk....hiccup
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    Re: THE MURDER OF EMMA,MEL AND DEBRA

    Post by claudicici on Sun May 23, 2010 4:36 am

    Interesting...

    But it seems like maybe the neighbors would have heard something if this was true, but then again hard to say if they would have done anything even if they heard someone scream. No one has come forward to report hearing anything like that as far as we know.

    We do know that evidence was collected in the back yard: a Slim Jim wrapper, a part of a headphone, a CD-R, a cigarette box, and a "doll key ring", but none of these items seems to fit this story in an obvious way.

    ETA: I also find it hard to believe that the DA is chatting some random girl up with details of the case...
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    claudicici

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    Re: THE MURDER OF EMMA,MEL AND DEBRA

    Post by claudicici on Sun May 23, 2010 4:38 am

    And the DA should know better than to jeopardize the case and his job . . .

    But, if this rumor were true, there would be defensive wounds.

    I'm not sure if I've given my opinion about whether Sam filmed the murders or not, but the source of that speculation comes from the search warrant. This is far from a confirmation that he actually videotaped the crime. It's more likely a statement added to justify taking memory cards and hard drives from the house.

    I think we've come up with a more likely scenario in these threads: that he may have videotaped the scene afterward to show his "boys" what he'd done. Therefore, I'm skeptical of local rumors that involve Sam wielding the maul and the video camera at that same time.
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    Re: THE MURDER OF EMMA,MEL AND DEBRA

    Post by claudicici on Sun May 23, 2010 4:39 am

    No offense to you, but I'm callin' bulls%#* on that. This is the biggest case this DA is probably going to see, so I highly doubt he's talking much about it.

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