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    Sam in court today September 20, 2010

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Guest on Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:05 pm

    Southernvagirl wrote:Scott, I have looked "it" up and I know from what the reports say, it does cost more to deliver the needle...However,it makes me ill to know he is just down the road from me, still breathing the same air...WE will hear from this creep again,,,you mark my words. I would sleep better knowing he was sent to his maker....besides,,,just my opinion here, he doesnt deserve to live..He gave up his right when he BUTCHERED 4 PEOPLE. Now you have people writing to him, sending him comforts of home "books" and such and it is not fair to the ones who died...i respect all you guys opinion and have been with yall since the days of WS...just have been lurking, but now the deal is done and it makes me quite ill...

    There was never a way to win this. No matter what ultimately does or does not happen to Sam there were four lives lost. I knew Debra personally and miss her terribly. It is not fair.

    I too find it disturbing that he has fans. It is sad that anyone thinks he is a celebrity. To me it demonstrates immaturity and a lack of understanding of the situation. I hope we do not hear from him again. I hope that the media reports for a couple more days, runs out of things to say, we here move on to another topic, and Sam quietly fades away into a hell of his own creation.

    I'm sorry you did not join the conversation sooner. It seems as though you have a lot to contribute.


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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Southernvagirl on Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:05 pm

    For some unknown reason, I have not been able to log in. My laptop has been a true pain in my ass......Yes, Scott, I have had so many thoughts about this case and just now (I havent been here in a while) I realized it was you who got up the "petition"...am I correct...I did read something about this and that is when I stopped reading here for a while....My emotions got the best of me...I am so sorry for your loss of a friend,and I feel heartfelt prayers to the love ones of the people who were BUTCHERED.......My question to you is this...How can you say that Dr. Kelly would NOT have wanted the death penalty, when she could not have expressed this after this WORM killed her precious daughter with a ball-peen hammer,,also silencing Ms Kelly in the process? Regardless how each and every person feels about the death Penalty in the big picture, dont you think it is totally possible she could have wanted this little worm to get the DP? If not for herself, surely for her child.


    Last edited by Southernvagirl on Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add)

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Southernvagirl on Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:15 pm

    The only good to come out of this plea is the fact that the family will never have to hear the evil details of these murders...I for one might feel better if I knew just how "miserable" this little worm will have it living in prison...Does anyone here know about prison life? I have read many boards today, and some seen to think he will commit suicide....They have also speculated that we WILL here from him in the future...one way or the other..Please tell me why he should be the one to say when he will depart this life after what he did to so many people.

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Southernvagirl on Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:23 pm

    I guess I am full of myself today, since I found out he was able to plea these crimes out for LWP....I would like to thank everyone from the beginning of this case, who warned the posters of the vids they put up on this forum and the WS forum...It is with deep gratitude I didnt have to experience alot of what was discussed in the forum at WS, otherwise I would have had maNY nightmares...This case has reached the depths of hell, of which I never would have wanted to go or see....This whole "horrocore" business,, IMO,, is from a place that is very scarry and proves that evil lurks around the corner. Case in point is sicko sam...

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Guest on Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:27 pm

    Southernvagirl wrote: For some unknown reason, I have not been able to log in. My laptop has been a true pain in my ass......Yes, Scott, I have had so many thoughts about this case and just now (I havent been here in a while) I realized it was you who got up the "petition"...am I correct...I did read something about this and that is when I stopped reading here for a while....My emotions got the best of me...I am so sorry for your loss of a friend,and I feel heartfelt prayers to the love ones of the people who were BUTCHERED.......My question to you is this...How can you say that Dr. Kelly would NOT have wanted the death penalty, when she could not have expressed this after this WORM killed her precious daughter with a ball-peen hammer,,also silencing Ms Kelly in the process? Regardless how each and every person feels about the death Penalty in the big picture, dont you think it is totally possible she could have wanted this little worm to get the DP? If not for herself, surely for her child.

    It was me with the petition. Sorry that it drove you away or at least contributed. Could I ask why? What was offensive about it? I did my best to give voice to a victim who could no longer speak for herself. I am no Sam fan. I never did it for him.

    I knew how Debra felt about it in life. Could her views have changed given these circumstances? I have heard this question all kinds of different ways. What if Debra had survived and Emma had not? What if Emma had survived and Debra had not? I think anyones views could change given unanticpated events. It is not possible to contemplate all the possible scenarios. If you are looking for absolute certainty I cannot give it to you.
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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by AndresEscobar on Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:29 pm

    Snuck in to catch this. Not with a bang but a whimper, eh?

    I'll weigh in on a few things here:

    Obviously, the plea deal is not a surprise, and as I've argued makes sense for all involved. With regard to whether Sam would "like" a trail, I doubt it. Trials are not fun experiences for anyone involved. They are high stress environments, and with the prospect of the death penalty hanging over the trial it's even worse. Sam had to accept the plea agreement, which means he didn't want it to go to trial. He listened to his lawyer. Smart.

    I also think it's interested that rumors of posing of the bodies, mutilation of the bodies, sending pictures of the bodies to friends, etc were overblown. The video that Sam made was a confession. The drive that Sam took may have been in contemplation of suicide.

    Also, apparently the ball peen hammer was just noise from the media.

    With regard to whether we'll "hear" from Sam again, I understand what you're implying but with LWOP the only way you'll hear from him is if he does some sort of in-jail interview. Oh, and when he dies. But that's certain to happen.


    Last edited by AndresEscobar on Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Southernvagirl on Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:30 pm

    Scott wrote:
    Southernvagirl wrote: For some unknown reason, I have not been able to log in. My laptop has been a true pain in my ass......Yes, Scott, I have had so many thoughts about this case and just now (I havent been here in a while) I realized it was you who got up the "petition"...am I correct...I did read something about this and that is when I stopped reading here for a while....My emotions got the best of me...I am so sorry for your loss of a friend,and I feel heartfelt prayers to the love ones of the people who were BUTCHERED.......My question to you is this...How can you say that Dr. Kelly would NOT have wanted the death penalty, when she could not have expressed this after this WORM killed her precious daughter with a ball-peen hammer,,also silencing Ms Kelly in the process? Regardless how each and every person feels about the death Penalty in the big picture, dont you think it is totally possible she could have wanted this little worm to get the DP? If not for herself, surely for her child.

    It was me with the petition. Sorry that it drove you away or at least contributed. Could I ask why? What was offensive about it? I did my best to give voice to a victim who could no longer speak for herself. I am no Sam fan. I never did it for him.

    I knew how Debra felt about it in life. Could her views have changed given these circumstances? I have heard this question all kinds of different ways. What if Debra had survived and Emma had not? What if Emma had survived and Debra had not? I think anyones views could change given unanticpated events. It is not possible to contemplate all the possible scenarios. If you are looking for absolute certainty I cannot give it to you.
    Thank you for your honesty.
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    ericclimbs

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by ericclimbs on Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:21 pm

    Piggybacking on what Andres mentioned, in regards to rumors, we also now definitively know that the SKR crowd, particularly Raz and Shirmy, were in no way involved in this. At least directly as some sort of revenge plot. We've already been around and around the merry-go-round, with many differing opinions, as to whether the music itself contributed.

    Where's Blou? And Claudia?
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    claudicici

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by claudicici on Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:12 pm

    hi guys,
    it's over.I'm feeling somber about it all.Like Ziggy and Scott said I think it was handled dignified,professional,a model trial,the way it should be.He plead guilty,no sensationalism,some sort of closure for the families.The way I wanted it to end.Life without parole.So sad ,no one wins.Ever.
    I'm looking for a deeper meaning,for a lesson learned in all of this.I want to hear Dr.Debra Kelly's voice loud and clear come out of this.I want her to be heard by people that are angry about Sam not getting death.Against death,against the vicious circle where lonely,sad children grow up without love,without learning the value of life.
    I think that's what it's all about.Sam never learned what love was.He wanted it so bad and thought he would find it with Emma.All the pain and anger he had inside of him all his life was unleashed so senselessly.No one was there for him .He will never know love.
    I want Mark Niederbrock's voice to be heard .His faith .A faith that's supposed to teach forgiveness,yet that same faith follower's seem to be the ones that scream loudest for vengeance.
    I want to hear Emma and I want to hear Mel.
    I want to hear from creative,beautiful girls that questioned authority and lived as individuals.Their voices would tell us that people should look beyond the make up,the style,the kind of music someone listens to.Horrorcore did not kill them.Horrorcore was a way for them to express themselves.Raz did not kill them.Sick did not kill them.They were loved by that community.
    I wished there was a deeper lesson in all of this.It was not the music that senselessly slaughtered 4 precious beautiful lifes.
    It was a boy ,a "closed up individual" that grew up in a cold ,ugly world and will never know love.Never.
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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by ericclimbs on Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:45 pm

    I agree Claudia. While nothing excuses what he did I think it was a last desperate, hate fueled striking back at a society he felt had nothing but contempt for him. The seeds of this crime were planted long before he met the victims or even became involved in SKR. Another horrible saga in Man's never ending inhumanity to his fellow man leaving behind twisted scars and deep sorrow for friends and families of the victims. Perhaps man and womankind can eventually evolve out of these tragedies within several generations? One would hope yet I think it'll take a lot longer than that.



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    ziggy

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by ziggy on Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:00 pm

    I think our society is in for a long, hard run with this then because all you need to do is look around you - lot and lots and LOTS of kids growing up with no one looking after them. Either the parents are divorced and self-centered or smoking meth or pimping them out for sex. It's become very unstable for kids today. Will they all grow up to be souless killers? I'm really not sure there is a lesson here. My only take on it is that sometimes there are just bad, evil people. True, he probably never felt loved and many kids will not. I'm afraid they will become at least, liars, cheaters, thieves etc. Raising someone with love and good morals is not a 100% profylactic but it certainly helps.

    Punishment is punishement and it is separate from forgiveness. If everyone was simply forgiven then there would be no need to incarcerate them, but it is a punitive action to keep order in a nation of laws. I can separate it from vengence and I think others can as well. Not everyone who seeks or supports the death penalty has vengence in their hearts.
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    claudicici

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by claudicici on Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:35 pm

    ...but if it's not vengence is it not simply discarding a life that has been discarded all along? what is the punishment,what is the lesson?
    I think what Scott and his wife did in Debra's memory was very meaningful.
    I think it made a lot of difference.
    I think the Well's silence was golden.
    They went through unimaginable pain yet silently supported this outcome all along.
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    tapu

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by tapu on Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:28 pm

    Two things I've been thinking about the DP:

    One has to do with the cost of execution vs. the cost of LWOP. While that is true given the current system, the costs of execution are largely due to the appeals process. I know we want an appeals process; nonetheless, the argument is not as simple as "LWOP costs more."


    The other thing is about prosecutors' decisions in these two cases. Petit was adamant about the death penalty, and the prosecutor reportedly let that weigh a lot in deciding if s/he would accept the guilty pleas. Family and friends of Debra Kelly were demonstrably against the death penalty, and the prosecutor accepted Sam's plea. Does that seem right? I'm not comfortable with the convictions of the victims or their families influencing how the DP is applied.
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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by claudicici on Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:58 pm

    ....even though obviously I'm against the death penalty all together I'm TOTALLY comfortable with the victims families deciding what punishment should be applied.
    I'm glad they seem to have influence,they should.It's about them.It's about an outcome that brings the most amount of closure to their situation I think.
    and I understand why Petit would want nothing less than death in that case.
    I think that case is very different from Sam's case.
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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by ericclimbs on Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:59 pm

    ziggy wrote:(respectfully snipped) Not everyone who seeks or supports the death penalty has vengence in their hearts.

    But Zig its been shown the Death Penalty is not a deterrent so what would be any other reason for it?

    I'd like to add, as for myself, I am not necessarily against the DP on moral grounds but rather on the fact that innocent people have been murdered (by the state) for a crime they did not commit. For me one of those is too many and an easy argument against the DP.

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Guest on Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:02 pm

    tapu wrote:Two things I've been thinking about the DP:

    One has to do with the cost of execution vs. the cost of LWOP. While that is true given the current system, the costs of execution are largely due to the appeals process. I know we want an appeals process; nonetheless, the argument is not as simple as "LWOP costs more."


    The other thing is about prosecutors' decisions in these two cases. Petit was adamant about the death penalty, and the prosecutor reportedly let that weigh a lot in deciding if s/he would accept the guilty pleas. Family and friends of Debra Kelly were demonstrably against the death penalty, and the prosecutor accepted Sam's plea. Does that seem right? I'm not comfortable with the convictions of the victims or their families influencing how the DP is applied.

    So for the sake of discussion. If it was up to you to make whatever changes.. what would you do?

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Guest on Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:15 pm

    I agree with Claudi that victims [or in cases like this when victims cannot speak for themselves] family / friends should be able to weigh in and this should be considered. It cannot be the sole determenative factor or we would have a system of vigilante justice. It is right that the victims voice should have some influence though.
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    Peace

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Peace on Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:45 pm

    Looking over the court documents tonight .....Cost for Prince Edward County $71,070.07

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Guest on Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:51 pm

    well, i have some questions still. lol. but, anyway, Sam's statement of killing everyone else besides Emma "they were in the wrong place at the wrong time." What's up with that?!? They were asleep! The father came to check on the others,,,and to be attacked from behind! Can a person be in some kind of rage to last for a few days? Is it possible? No time for any 'down time?'
    Three were killed in their sleep!!!!----in their own homes!!!! I also have a hard time with that statement by Sam----he went into each room!!!! They were all killed in separate places!!!
    With the magnitude of the kind of crime,,,i am glad none of the victims knew,,,and they didn't suffer the continued trauma their bodies succombed too.
    Claudici hit some good points as Sam living a life in a loveless environment,,,,from his life at his home environment then seeking a love he believed was solely for him,,,and then bang,,,,
    I also believe the genre he chose to be 'connected' with somehow got twisted in his thinking and make some of that into a real life experience. I could be wrong, but just some ideas running in my head.
    It is very scary working with kids, vulnerable kids, that live in a loveless environment---then having to try to teach the basic academics in a school environment!!!!---talk about a very hard task from a teacher's point of view. Survival is their main agenda for most of these kids...
    None-the-less, it is not acceptable to commit crimes no matter where you came from, how you were raised,,,etc.
    It would be interesting to read the mental/psychological report on Sam,,,
    as for nightmares of this case?----yes, i have had uneasy nights too,,,and had to literally focus my attention on other more positive things and try my hardest to erase the images and videos that were posted here ( i thank too, for those who gave fair warning ).
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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by ziggy on Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:17 am

    ericclimbs wrote:
    ziggy wrote:(respectfully snipped) Not everyone who seeks or supports the death penalty has vengence in their hearts.

    But Zig its been shown the Death Penalty is not a deterrent so what would be any other reason for it?

    I'd like to add, as for myself, I am not necessarily against the DP on moral grounds but rather on the fact that innocent people have been murdered (by the state) for a crime they did not commit. For me one of those is too many and an easy argument against the DP.

    Hey Eric - How come nobody ever argues that all the other forms of punishments are insufficient deterents? Because that is not the only reason we incarcerate, make people pick up garbage on the side of the road or do community service or pay fines...it serves a punitive function and some people feel that the death penalty is an apt punishment. Punishment by forfeiting one's life when they've taken someone else's seems like a fair punishment to some.

    It doesn't need to be given with hatred and vengenance but just as matter-of-fact punishment...same as making you wear an orange vest and humiliate yourself on the side of the freeway here in CA...it just is what it is.
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    SonicG

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by SonicG on Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:23 am

    Howdy all...and so it ends...Can't really add much to what's been said except that, yeah, it is still unbelievable but unless we do get to see the psych. eval. or something, I will just have to meditate on it...

    I don't think this article has been brought up before and even though it's 10 years old, the Red Onion sounds like a very tough place. Will Sam even be put into the general population? Killing young women in their sleep and trying to be a braggadocio "horrorcore" rapper won't get very far with HC criminals, will it??

    [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

    The New York-based group Human Rights Watch, a leader in investigating prisons, has been denied tours of Red Onion because of the state's safety concerns. Based on interviews with prisoners, the group claims that racism, excessive violence and inhumane conditions reign inside. State prison officials deny those charges.

    Human Rights Watch also contends – and prison officials also deny – that Virginia and many other states in the super-max building boom are rushing to fill those cells to justify the expense, pulling many less-dangerous inmates like Giarratano into unnecessarily extreme conditions.

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Guest on Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:22 am

    ziggy wrote:
    ericclimbs wrote:
    ziggy wrote:(respectfully snipped) Not everyone who seeks or supports the death penalty has vengence in their hearts.

    But Zig its been shown the Death Penalty is not a deterrent so what would be any other reason for it?

    I'd like to add, as for myself, I am not necessarily against the DP on moral grounds but rather on the fact that innocent people have been murdered (by the state) for a crime they did not commit. For me one of those is too many and an easy argument against the DP.

    Hey Eric - How come nobody ever argues that all the other forms of punishments are insufficient deterents? Because that is not the only reason we incarcerate, make people pick up garbage on the side of the road or do community service or pay fines...it serves a punitive function and some people feel that the death penalty is an apt punishment. Punishment by forfeiting one's life when they've taken someone else's seems like a fair punishment to some.

    It doesn't need to be given with hatred and vengenance but just as matter-of-fact punishment...same as making you wear an orange vest and humiliate yourself on the side of the freeway here in CA...it just is what it is.
    What a great question Zig. I had never considered it quite like that before. In my mind, the death penalty is more extreme, expensive, and irreversible so if we as society are going to go to that next level I think we would want to see a compelling reason why. I think people look for the compelling reason in deterrants and don't find it. Deterrants are hard to measure. How do you measure something that did not happen? If a bank hires off duty police officers to stand in the loby and the bank is NOT robbed .. is the bank not robbed becuase there is a police officer there or was no one planning to rob that specific bank anyway? How could you ever be sure? Are murders contemplated and not commited due to fear of the consequences? Probably, but how do you put a # on that? The fear could be of either execution or going to prison for life. The fear may not even be of the law. The fear could be based on someones religious, cultural, or moral beliefs. It could be fear of going to hell. It could be fear of bringing dishonor to ones family. What scares one person may not scare another. What motivates one may not motivate another.


    Last edited by Scott on Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:35 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Guest on Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:28 am

    SonicG wrote:Howdy all...and so it ends...Can't really add much to what's been said except that, yeah, it is still unbelievable but unless we do get to see the psych. eval. or something, I will just have to meditate on it...

    I don't think this article has been brought up before and even though it's 10 years old, the Red Onion sounds like a very tough place. Will Sam even be put into the general population? Killing young women in their sleep and trying to be a braggadocio "horrorcore" rapper won't get very far with HC criminals, will it??

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/april99/supermax18.htm

    The New York-based group Human Rights Watch, a leader in investigating prisons, has been denied tours of Red Onion because of the state's safety concerns. Based on interviews with prisoners, the group claims that racism, excessive violence and inhumane conditions reign inside. State prison officials deny those charges.

    Human Rights Watch also contends – and prison officials also deny – that Virginia and many other states in the super-max building boom are rushing to fill those cells to justify the expense, pulling many less-dangerous inmates like Giarratano into unnecessarily extreme conditions.

    I believe Red Onion is the only supermax prison left in the state. It does sound like a terrible place to be. So do pretty much all the other prisons as well. I am not sure if Sam will be a supermax prisoner or not. Certainly he will be max simply due to the nature of his crimes but I don't know what criteria the dept of corrections uses to determine the difference between someone who needs to be in max and supermax. Perhaps someone who knows more about it could weigh in.
    Sam should be transferred out of the regional jail in the not too distant future. It should not be too hard to find out where he is being held.
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    ericclimbs

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by ericclimbs on Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:15 pm

    ziggy wrote:
    ericclimbs wrote:
    ziggy wrote:(respectfully snipped) Not everyone who seeks or supports the death penalty has vengence in their hearts.

    But Zig its been shown the Death Penalty is not a deterrent so what would be any other reason for it?

    I'd like to add, as for myself, I am not necessarily against the DP on moral grounds but rather on the fact that innocent people have been murdered (by the state) for a crime they did not commit. For me one of those is too many and an easy argument against the DP.

    Hey Eric - How come nobody ever argues that all the other forms of punishments are insufficient deterents? Because that is not the only reason we incarcerate, make people pick up garbage on the side of the road or do community service or pay fines...it serves a punitive function and some people feel that the death penalty is an apt punishment. Punishment by forfeiting one's life when they've taken someone else's seems like a fair punishment to some.

    It doesn't need to be given with hatred and vengenance but just as matter-of-fact punishment...same as making you wear an orange vest and humiliate yourself on the side of the freeway here in CA...it just is what it is.

    Boldface on quote above added by me.

    I would disagree with this statement. I am speaking on the subject of deterrence in regards to crime in general and not the issue of punitive damages. There are many conflicting studies out there that come down on both sides of this issue except in regards to murder. Many complex factors are involved such as age, education level, and whether the individual has been to jail or prison before. How many people do you think, in these hard economic times and high jobless rate, would go out and rob a bank if they thought they would get away with it? Or, if they didn't, would only get a mild slap on the wrist and maybe some therapy classes. I would argue a lot.

    I had a friend who went to a general population jail, for a DUI, and had such a bad experience he will never drive after having even a sip of alcohol. He doesn't want to dare risk going back and, more importantly, he has a wife and child he cares deeply about. His jail time, while not an initial deterrent, certainly is one now that he has had the unfortunate experience of having been there.

    I believe laws and threats of fines, jail and/ or prison are a huge deterrent for a majority of the population who might be otherwise tempted to break the law. I know career criminals will constantly re-offend but I believe the crime rate would be much higher, in general, if sufficient deterrents were not in place.

    I know that much of what I just said also applies to murder as well. Certainly more angry people might be inclined to commit homicide if they thought they could get away with it. It is just that the DP adds nothing to the present deterrence levels we already have for killing except that it is permanent and irreversible in the event of a mistake.
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    ericclimbs

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by ericclimbs on Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:20 pm

    Scott wrote:
    ziggy wrote:
    ericclimbs wrote:
    ziggy wrote:(respectfully snipped) Not everyone who seeks or supports the death penalty has vengence in their hearts.

    But Zig its been shown the Death Penalty is not a deterrent so what would be any other reason for it?

    I'd like to add, as for myself, I am not necessarily against the DP on moral grounds but rather on the fact that innocent people have been murdered (by the state) for a crime they did not commit. For me one of those is too many and an easy argument against the DP.

    Hey Eric - How come nobody ever argues that all the other forms of punishments are insufficient deterents? Because that is not the only reason we incarcerate, make people pick up garbage on the side of the road or do community service or pay fines...it serves a punitive function and some people feel that the death penalty is an apt punishment. Punishment by forfeiting one's life when they've taken someone else's seems like a fair punishment to some.

    It doesn't need to be given with hatred and vengenance but just as matter-of-fact punishment...same as making you wear an orange vest and humiliate yourself on the side of the freeway here in CA...it just is what it is.
    What a great question Zig. I had never considered it quite like that before. In my mind, the death penalty is more extreme, expensive, and irreversible so if we as society are going to go to that next level I think we would want to see a compelling reason why. I think people look for the compelling reason in deterrants and don't find it. Deterrants are hard to measure. How do you measure something that did not happen? If a bank hires off duty police officers to stand in the loby and the bank is NOT robbed .. is the bank not robbed becuase there is a police officer there or was no one planning to rob that specific bank anyway? How could you ever be sure? Are murders contemplated and not commited due to fear of the consequences? Probably, but how do you put a # on that? The fear could be of either execution or going to prison for life. The fear may not even be of the law. The fear could be based on someones religious, cultural, or moral beliefs. It could be fear of going to hell. It could be fear of bringing dishonor to ones family. What scares one person may not scare another. What motivates one may not motivate another.

    I agree with all of the above. It is a complicated issue and we are arguing human nature, trying to find a perfect way to manage an imperfect world. . .

    Sometimes there just are no answers that we, collectively as a species, are capable of grabbing at this stage of our evolution.

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

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