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    recurring question

    Post by Guest on Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:18 pm

    I have discussed this case with many people and a question that I continually hear is how did one man armed with only a maul [or hammer] kill three people in a house without someone hearing him or fighting back or doing something else to prevent it.

    I think there is a lot of misunderstanding about what happens to someone when they are hit in the head with such an implement.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9usH1I8EnkA

    Refer to the attached link. This is an excerpt from the tv show Deadliest Warrior. I apologize for the long winded intro that is not relevant to my point. Feel free to fast forward. At approximately 6:44 and 7:55 they hit a human skull analog with a tomahawk. I understand that it is neither a maul nor a hammer but it is the closest approximation I could find.

    They were killed nearly instantly.
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    Percy
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    Re: recurring question

    Post by Percy on Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:32 pm

    Agreed, if he swung it like it was meant to be swung then they didnt feel anything and certainly didnt react witha scream etc.

    I am still of the opinion that mom went first and mel second with Emma likely forced to watch them all die but the problem with that is she would have been screaming and could someone close by have heard, how close are the neighbors?


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    ziggy

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    Re: recurring question

    Post by ziggy on Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:39 pm

    I tend to think it was Emma, Mel and then Debra. Scott - can you tell me something that has been bothering me for months...??? Was it Debra's body that was found upstairs? The reports said 3 bodies downstairs and one up. Someone who knew Mark and was at the funeral told us that due to Mark's decomp, the hard wood floors had to be replaced downstairs and the floor info. was confirmed on the auction flyer.

    It would only make sense that Debra was probably the one killed in her bed for sure. She would have been far enough away to not hear what went on in the downstairs and far end of the house. If Emma were struck first in the head, the blow would not have to be fatal to render her unconscious. If Mel was high and asleep, it can take a few seconds to register what the heck is going on and those seconds could have easily made it "too late". After that rage storm maybe he figured he would have to do the other live person in because he was planning to try and concoct a fake intruder story and get out - I don't know it's all so sketchy for us.

    I don't have any trouble seeing how one guy with a ball peen hammer could disable three women - 1 in a different part of the house and likely asleep - by himself.

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    Re: recurring question

    Post by Guest on Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:43 pm

    Debra was upstairs.
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    Re: recurring question

    Post by piXy on Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:13 pm

    ziggy wrote:I tend to think it was Emma, Mel and then Debra. Scott - can you tell me something that has been bothering me for months...??? Was it Debra's body that was found upstairs? The reports said 3 bodies downstairs and one up. Someone who knew Mark and was at the funeral told us that due to Mark's decomp, the hard wood floors had to be replaced downstairs and the floor info. was confirmed on the auction flyer.

    It would only make sense that Debra was probably the one killed in her bed for sure. She would have been far enough away to not hear what went on in the downstairs and far end of the house. If Emma were struck first in the head, the blow would not have to be fatal to render her unconscious. If Mel was high and asleep, it can take a few seconds to register what the heck is going on and those seconds could have easily made it "too late". After that rage storm maybe he figured he would have to do the other live person in because he was planning to try and concoct a fake intruder story and get out - I don't know it's all so sketchy for us.

    I don't have any trouble seeing how one guy with a ball peen hammer could disable three women - 1 in a different part of the house and likely asleep - by himself.
    Agree
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    Re: recurring question

    Post by ziggy on Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:42 pm

    Thanks Scott - that fact makes me feel pretty confident she was not the first one.

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    Re: recurring question

    Post by Guest on Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:58 pm

    Scott wrote:I have discussed this case with many people and a question that I continually hear is how did one man armed with only a maul [or hammer] kill three people in a house without someone hearing him or fighting back or doing something else to prevent it.

    I think there is a lot of misunderstanding about what happens to someone when they are hit in the head with such an implement.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9usH1I8EnkA

    Refer to the attached link. This is an excerpt from the tv show Deadliest Warrior. I apologize for the long winded intro that is not relevant to my point. Feel free to fast forward. At approximately 6:44 and 7:55 they hit a human skull analog with a tomahawk. I understand that it is neither a maul nor a hammer but it is the closest approximation I could find.

    They were killed nearly instantly.

    Wow. Yeah I can definitely see how all it would take is one blow with the maul.
    The hammer on the other hand, I think would take a few more swings.
    I was debating with someone a while back about the case and they suggested that I watch the '3 guys 1 hammer' video so "I could see exactly what Sam did". I checked it out and well...It's pretty graphic. The victim in the video was still alive after 8 strikes to the face/head with the hammer
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    Re: recurring question

    Post by Peace on Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:57 am

    Scott wrote:Debra was upstairs.
    She was killed upstairs and body recovered there?
    And Mark was killed and found where?
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    Re: recurring question

    Post by ziggy on Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:22 am

    I think I've been able to figure from the facts reported that it was Debra whose body was upstairs and yes killed there (Sam would not be able to move her up the stairs imo and there would be no reason to). Mark was most likely found with the girls because the reports said three bodies downstairs and since the police had been to the home after all were deceased, Sam would have had to hide his body in that "other" part of the house that is separated by the den area...at least that's what I am piecing together from the known facts.
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    Re: recurring question

    Post by dangrsmind on Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:52 am

    Scott wrote:I have discussed this case with many people and a question that I continually hear is how did one man armed with only a maul [or hammer] kill three people in a house without someone hearing him or fighting back or doing something else to prevent it.

    I think there is a lot of misunderstanding about what happens to someone when they are hit in the head with such an implement.

    [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

    Refer to the attached link. This is an excerpt from the tv show Deadliest Warrior. I apologize for the long winded intro that is not relevant to my point. Feel free to fast forward. At approximately 6:44 and 7:55 they hit a human skull analog with a tomahawk. I understand that it is neither a maul nor a hammer but it is the closest approximation I could find.

    They were killed nearly instantly.

    I said approximately the same thing over on Websleuths way back when.
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    Re: recurring question

    Post by AndresEscobar on Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:04 am

    FWIW, I think the argument is not: "Why didn't anyone hear the victim screaming after getting hit with the maul". It was: "Why didn't this method create enough noise to alert the others, thereby causing them to make some sort of noise or flee."
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    Re: recurring question

    Post by Kay on Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:16 am

    Were the two girls in bed when killed (sleeping)? Separate rooms?

    Bless their hearts, I hope none of them knew what was happening. Sad
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    Re: recurring question

    Post by Percy on Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:50 am

    Kay wrote:Were the two girls in bed when killed (sleeping)? Separate rooms?

    Bless their hearts, I hope none of them knew what was happening.
    We dont know for sure but it seems that may be the case and it has been confirmed by a few people in the know.


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    Re: recurring question

    Post by ziggy on Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:53 am

    I don't think it would make enough noise to wake me up. It's not like someone's head (pardon my bluntness) is made of metal and a big gong would go off. It might be the same level of loud as the cracking of a plastic bottle or something...hair and the denseness of the matter inside the skull would muffle the sound somewhat I would think. Well, thank goodness I'm no expert on mauls to heads; but sound sleepers may need more to be awakened in my opinion so I don't find it strange that no one woke up nor screamed.
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    Re: recurring question

    Post by the tapu on Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:23 am

    The only person I can imagine being awakened when it all went down is the 2nd girl in the room with the 1st. I see them sleeping in the same room and Sam coming in and doing Emma. Then, sure, Mel might have awakened, but not become conscious enough that fast to realize what was going on. When she woke up, Sam could have turned around and gotten her. Maybe only her head was raised from the pillow, at that point. I don't think, given the extreme unbelievability of the situation that she ever could have thought, omigod, this guy is murdering us, i better run.

    Conjecture but plausible, at least. No big stretches or complications here.

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    Re: recurring question

    Post by Guest on Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:17 am

    ziggy wrote:I don't think it would make enough noise to wake me up. It's not like someone's head (pardon my bluntness) is made of metal and a big gong would go off. It might be the same level of loud as the cracking of a plastic bottle or something...hair and the denseness of the matter inside the skull would muffle the sound somewhat I would think. Well, thank goodness I'm no expert on mauls to heads; but sound sleepers may need more to be awakened in my opinion so I don't find it strange that no one woke up nor screamed.
    I agree. Also if their head was laying on a pillow, bed, or something else soft the sound maybe futher muffled.
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    Re: recurring question

    Post by AndresEscobar on Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:18 pm

    Maybe I'm a light sleeper, but I generally wake when 1. someone enters my room, 2. when someone sleeping in my room is stirring or gets up, 3. I'm sure as hell going to wake up if someone took a large object with a metal head and slammed it into something 10 feet away from my head.

    The sound of a maul hitting a skull would be loud. It is not the same as someone crunching a plastic bottle. The closest you'll be able to replicate is the sound of hitting a baseball bat into a bed or cushion with enough force to crack a skull. There's the noise of the bed absorbing the blow. Then add the sound of said skull cracking. Also, any sort of movement that occurred during and after death, choking etc, depending on how the blow hit the first girl.

    This is also assume that they were sleeping in separate beds. If they were in the same bed, the second girl would have felt the blow.

    The second girl in the room probably woke up and was probably awake for a time that we cannot know based on our currents facts. It may have been 15 seconds, it may have been 2 minutes, etc. Now, I believe tapu's argument that she probably didn't have enough time to react, especially if Sam hit the first girl once, then hit the second girl, then went back to make sure the first girl was dead.
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    Re: recurring question

    Post by ziggy on Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:01 pm

    All you have to do is think back to Ted Bundy and the sorority murders - he successfully bludgeoned multiple girls in their beds when they shared a room and then went to another room.

    Given this it doesn't seem incredible at all - and it is possible that if there were two bedrooms in that unit, Mel may have been in the other room and Sam's guest room was upstairs in the main house, but I don't know any of that for sure of course.
    Also note: it seems when you are a teenageer or young adult you have the ability to SLEEP (something I really miss) IN; and typically sleep very hard. In college I could sleep through almost anything because the dorms are always noisy and you typically have roomates even off campus. Drugs may also be a factor - weed can make one sleep deeper perhaps - they cultivate a type here called Purple Haze that is specifically for inducing sleep for those with the medical MJ card.

    From Wikipedia:
    One week after Bundy's arrival in Tallahassee, at approximately 3 a.m. on January 15, Bundy entered the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] house and killed two sleeping women, Lisa Levy and Margaret Bowman. Bludgeoning and strangling them both, he also sexually assaulted Levy. Bundy then moved from Levy's and Bowman's rooms to bludgeon and severely injure two other Chi Omegas, roommates Karen Chandler and Kathy Kleiner. The entire episode took no more than half an hour. After leaving the Chi Omega house, Bundy broke into another home a few blocks away, clubbing and severely injuring [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] student Cheryl Thomas.[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

    edited to add BEWARE OF GRAPHIC CONTENT - BUNDY SORORITY CRIME SCENE AND CORONER'S PHOTOS:
    [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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    Re: recurring question

    Post by the tapu on Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:21 pm

    Wow. Zig. That's some site. Thanks, I think. Smile
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    Re: recurring question

    Post by ziggy on Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:17 am

    I know huh? I had no idea some of those graphic photos were even available online. Kinda surprised me too. You get a real sense how ugly and brutal those kinds of deaths are. I would not want to be a crime scene investigator...I'm totally OK with the pics but in real life I don't think I could get over the smell and the 3D of it all.
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    Re: recurring question

    Post by dangrsmind on Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:41 am

    Not only are such pictures available online, some people seem to be devoted to viewing and collecting them. These are relatively mild IMO.
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    Re: recurring question

    Post by the tapu on Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:36 am

    Hi, Dangrs. Can you please provide links to the photos that make these seem "mild" to you? I'm feeling awfully naive about it.
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    Re: recurring question

    Post by AndresEscobar on Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:44 am

    ziggy wrote:All you have to do is think back to Ted Bundy and the sorority murders - he successfully bludgeoned multiple girls in their beds when they shared a room and then went to another room.

    Given this it doesn't seem incredible at all - and it is possible that if there were two bedrooms in that unit, Mel may have been in the other room and Sam's guest room was upstairs in the main house, but I don't know any of that for sure of course.
    Also note: it seems when you are a teenageer or young adult you have the ability to SLEEP (something I really miss) IN; and typically sleep very hard. In college I could sleep through almost anything because the dorms are always noisy and you typically have roomates even off campus. Drugs may also be a factor - weed can make one sleep deeper perhaps - they cultivate a type here called Purple Haze that is specifically for inducing sleep for those with the medical MJ card.

    From Wikipedia:
    One week after Bundy's arrival in Tallahassee, at approximately 3 a.m. on January 15, Bundy entered the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] house and killed two sleeping women, Lisa Levy and Margaret Bowman. Bludgeoning and strangling them both, he also sexually assaulted Levy. Bundy then moved from Levy's and Bowman's rooms to bludgeon and severely injure two other Chi Omegas, roommates Karen Chandler and Kathy Kleiner. The entire episode took no more than half an hour. After leaving the Chi Omega house, Bundy broke into another home a few blocks away, clubbing and severely injuring [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] student Cheryl Thomas.[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

    edited to add BEWARE OF GRAPHIC CONTENT - BUNDY SORORITY CRIME SCENE AND CORONER'S PHOTOS:
    [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

    Lisa Levy and Margaret Bowman died from strangulation. They'd also been bludgeoned and I believe one of the girls skull was basically destroyed, but the COD was strangulation for both girls.
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    Re: recurring question

    Post by Kay on Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:54 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    ziggy wrote:All you have to do is think back to Ted Bundy and the sorority murders - he successfully bludgeoned multiple girls in their beds when they shared a room and then went to another room.

    Given this it doesn't seem incredible at all - and it is possible that if there were two bedrooms in that unit, Mel may have been in the other room and Sam's guest room was upstairs in the main house, but I don't know any of that for sure of course.
    Also note: it seems when you are a teenageer or young adult you have the ability to SLEEP (something I really miss) IN; and typically sleep very hard. In college I could sleep through almost anything because the dorms are always noisy and you typically have roomates even off campus. Drugs may also be a factor - weed can make one sleep deeper perhaps - they cultivate a type here called Purple Haze that is specifically for inducing sleep for those with the medical MJ card.

    From Wikipedia:
    One week after Bundy's arrival in Tallahassee, at approximately 3 a.m. on January 15, Bundy entered the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] house and killed two sleeping women, Lisa Levy and Margaret Bowman. Bludgeoning and strangling them both, he also sexually assaulted Levy. Bundy then moved from Levy's and Bowman's rooms to bludgeon and severely injure two other Chi Omegas, roommates Karen Chandler and Kathy Kleiner. The entire episode took no more than half an hour. After leaving the Chi Omega house, Bundy broke into another home a few blocks away, clubbing and severely injuring [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] student Cheryl Thomas.[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

    edited to add BEWARE OF GRAPHIC CONTENT - BUNDY SORORITY CRIME SCENE AND CORONER'S PHOTOS:
    [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

    Lisa Levy and Margaret Bowman died from strangulation. They'd also been bludgeoned and I believe one of the girls skull was basically destroyed, but the COD was strangulation for both girls.

    If you are sleeping when you are strangled, would you wake up before you die? I wonder if you could pass out from lack of oxygen, without ever waking up. A couple of those pictures look like the girls just slept through the attack.
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    Re: recurring question

    Post by ziggy on Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:08 am

    But Andres my friend check it out: Two other girls in the sorority who were roomates in the same room were bludgeoned and lived to tell the story. When you really take in all that happened in that house that night and elsewhere the cracked skulls are as prevelant as the strangling in the the attack regardless of what is listed as official COD. Moreover, if he was going to stangle them first and then bash their heads in, why did the other two live? He had to have hit one in the head while the other one was alive in the same room. I'm just saying that history proves people either don't wake up or wake up too dazed and confused to react promptly. He probably would have been able to finish them off with a few more blows, don't know what spooked him and he ran away but they were in pretty bad shape.

    Maybe he hit them in the head to disable them and then he strangled them to finish them off. Either way there was head bashing going on with another person sleeping in the same room and others in rooms right next door. You can't get around that mr. slinky.

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