Anderson Cooper October 2009 transcript

I havn't seen this before.The case was discussed on Anderson Cooper last year.I've missed this,I think this is interesting.


The next story will also get you talking. It's disturbing. So is the music that some say inspired it.

The music is called Horrorcore and the lyrics are about murder, rape and Satan. Just entertainment or incitement to murder? You be the judge tonight.

And just when you thought Levi Johnston was only coming out of his shell to pitch pistachios, "Playgirl" called, he answered and apparently, well, he's going to, you know, show the full Monty. Details coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: In "Crime & Punishment" tonight, an aspiring Horrorcore rapper stands accused of cold-blooded murder and many are wondering if the music drove him to kill.

This is the alleged killer, suspected of taking the lives of a pastor and three other people. He is a follower of something called Horrorcore rap, a genre with lyrics that speak of extreme violence, torture and death.

Tonight we're going to take you inside the underground world of Horrorcore rap. Find out more about the appeal and whether it really did fuel one man's rampage.

Here is Gary Tuchman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You might think Richard Samuel McCroskey (ph), looks like an average young man. But you'd be so wrong. On YouTube he calls himself Psycho Sam; his lyrics, offensive and upsetting.

For more upsetting is this -- Psycho Sam is now accused of actually carrying out the type of murder and mayhem he raps about.

JIM ENNIS, PRINCE EDWARD COMMONWEALTH ATTORNEY: Preliminary results of the autopsies indicate that the causes of death were blunt force trauma to the head.

TUCHMAN: The 20-year-old Northern Californian suspected of brutally killing four people had a smirk on his face as he led to jail in the tiny town of Farmville, Virginia.

One of the victims, 16-year-old Emma Niederbrock (ph) whom he met over the Internet and who invited him to stay at her house.

When a reporter asked McCroskey about the allegations against him, he declared...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jesus told me to do it.

TUCHMAN: McCroskey has not yet made a plea. The attorney appointed to defend him on this murder rap who just visited him in this jail says...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's dear (ph) in the headlights a little bit. I dare say he's -- he's -- I don't want to say in shock. That's a medical term. It's a big experience for him.

TUCHMAN: McCroskey has been involved in a musical genre that his lawyer and most other people know little about. It's called Horrorcore, a style of hip hop music that often dwells on topics that include killings, rapes and Satanism.

This concert features a group called the Insane Clown Posse, commercially a very successful group. Before we talked with them, the industry says there was not a connection between these lyrics and real life violence.

But these two teenagers feel differently. Landon and Brandon Maceachran are twins who are both close friends with Emma Niederbrock. A photo of Emma is still on one of the teens' cell phones.

Emma was a follower of Horrorcore, too.

(on camera): If she would have told you that she was inviting him to her house, a guy who writes these violent lyrics about murder...

BRANDON MACEACHRAN, FRIEND OF VICTIM: I would have been worried.

TUCHMAN: What would you have said to her beforehand?

MACEACHRAN: I would have been worried and I would have told her because I'm a blunt person. I would have told her that somebody needs to be around her to watch her.

If you have somebody that writes stuff like that, that's somebody you need to watch.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): Also bludgeoned to death, Emma's mother, Deborah Kelly (ph), Emma's father, the Reverend Mark Niederbrock (ph), a pastor at a Presbyterian church. And another friend staying with Emma, a teen named Melanie Wells.

(on camera): A disturbing sequence of events was triggered when police received a call from Emma's friend's mother. Melanie Well's mother hadn't heard from her daughter for a while and asked police to come by this house to check out the situation.

(voice-over): The cops came to the door, said they were met by the man known as Psycho Sam. They said he told them everything was fine that Melanie was at the movies.

But Melanie's mother still didn't' hear from her daughter. Called the police and told them please come back.

They came back the next day. This time Psycho Sam was no longer here. But a terrible odor was. Police went inside the house and immediately found three bodies. Upon further searching, they found a fourth.

This surveillance tape at the Richmond Airport shows McCroskey being arrested. He had fallen asleep near the luggage carousels.

(on camera): Richard Samuel McCroskey is scheduled to return to court on January 11th for a preliminary hearing. By then, he may find out if prosecutors plan to seek the death penalty.

(voice-over): His YouTube look was part of the act, but if the allegations against him are correct, this is how he may have really looked to four terrified people.

Gary Tuchman, CNN, Farmville, Virginia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, let's "Dig Deeper." Alan Lipman, a psychologist and the founder of the Center for the Study of Violence and James Zahn, the editor of Fangoria Musick and an authority on Horrorcore rap.

Appreciate both of you being us with.

Alan, you know, it's the easiest thing in the world to blame music for problems. Judas Priest used to get blamed, Marilyn Manson, even Elvin Presley back in the day have all been accused of inciting stuff. This music clearly it is offensive and the lyrics are disgusting. Does it really though cause somebody to kill?

ALAN LIPMAN, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, look, here's the way it works. We've seen this not only with the music that you cited but with comic books, video games, with other music like Ozzie Osborne and so forth.

The fact of the matter is 98 percent of kids could be seated in front of this admittedly, very shocking hardcore and while they may be shocked by it, while they might be disturbed by it, they would not be violent. They just simply would not cause violence.

The problem is this, that in 2 percent of kids who already have a propensity towards violence, who are isolated, who are alienated, who are ready to act out; this is the match for the gasoline. So it provides basically a method and a means for violence.

So it's those kids -- and I do think that this is a situation where it applies -- where we have to be very careful in exposing these kids to this kind of music.

COOPER: James, do you agree with that? That it provides a language or way of thinking to a kid who has a pre-existing problem?

JAMES ZAHN, EDITOR, "FANGORIA MUSICK": I think that the bigger problem is that they have that predisposed penchant for violence or whatnot. But I don't feel that the music is that match. I think that entertainment as a whole -- and there is horror in many forms of entertainment -- looked at by that small percentage of people, maybe it could cause something. But I don't see it that way.

I tend to think that there's entertainment and there's real life. If you're going to do bad things, chances are you're going to do them with or without music.

LIPMAN: That's a very reasonable...

COOPER: I want to follow up on that for just a second. We have to take a quick break.

A lot more to talk about. Alan and James, we'll be right back to you.

Also ahead tonight, Michael Vick getting his own reality show -- talk about bizarre -- but does that guy deserve a platform? We'll let you decide.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: He rapped about rape, torture and murder and now this young man who went by the name of Psycho Sam is behind bars charged with killing four people. He said Jesus told him to do it. Was the music the match that made him explode?

He was part of Horrorcore rap, the lyrics clearly sickening and disturbing, the message one of mayhem and bloodshed. With us is again is psychologist Alan Lipman and James Zahn, editor of Fangoria Musick and an expert on Horrorcore.

Alan you wanted to follow up on what James had said.

LIPMAN: Sure. I agree with James that for most people this is entertainment. But what we have to realize is that for kids who are already isolated and angry -- this is a kid who had already been thrown out of school twice, who had already shown anger, who said I hate everyone and hate everything that when he was, as we found out, rejected and his family split up, this kind of rage, as we've seen in the Secret Service study that was done in 2002 is expressed through the method and means of what they've listening to or doing, whether it is video games or whether it is hard core violent music.

That doesn't mean that we should ban this stuff.

James, you're absolutely right. The answer is to see the signs of this kind of anger and rage before this acted out in this way.

And this was a kid who was clearly showing signs of it long before these acts took place. So the answer is vision, intervention, treatment, not banning this kind of material. COOPER: James, I don't think most people have even heard of Horrorcore before. Maybe they heard of the Insane Clown Posse; that's about as close as I had heard of it.

Richard McCroskey, this guy who called himself Psycho Sam, he rapped about raping, torturing, killing -- is that standard fare for Horrorcore lyrics.

ZAHN: It can be. One of the things about Psycho Sam is that no one knew who he was before this incident. He wasn't a celebrity. He wasn't on any label of note. He wasn't out there selling tons of albums. He was very much a DIY type of independent underground artist that was doing this.

But as a whole, the genre is very much like the audio version of a really scary movie. There are all of those topics in there. Torture, murder, you name it, it's there. It's the audio equivalent to what horror films are on the visual end.

COOPER: What's been the reaction among people who like Horrorcore about this murder -- about these murders?

ZAHN: Everyone has been sympathetic. All the chat boards, and the message forums and all of that, everybody has expressed condolences and sympathy for the families. Because as Alan was saying, the norm would be not to go bludgeon people as he's accused of doing.

This is a small incident that once again, has brought attention to a larger genre but it's not a huge genre. Now it's mainstream news.

COOPER: Alan, you say you see parallels in this tragedy to others like Columbine and Virginia Tech. How so?

LIPMAN: Well, sure. All we have to do is walk backwards. Let's say we start -- we can start in the last ten years.

But let's start with Columbine. These were angry, isolated, alienated kids who had diagnosed mental illnesses that had not been treated. As the Secret Service report lays out, boom, boom, boom, boom. They were obsessed with doom, they immersed themselves in doom.

How would they have acted out that violence if they hadn't immersed themselves in that genre? And some other way, maybe they would have busted a window or maybe they would have gotten into fights. If this provides a direction, a means, a way of expressing the anger...

COOPER: So Alan, for a parent out there and their kid is listening to this and then maybe this is the first they're kind of hearing it, what do you advise?

LIPMAN: Long before the kid is immersing themselves in their room as he did for four years, from 1999 onwards, listening to hard core, see that when your child is absolutely distraught over your divorce, as his sister mentioned, that this is a situation that needs to be dealt with then, that needs to be intervened with them before it blossoms in to the kind of horror that we've seen over these last few weeks.

COOPER: We have to leave it there. Alan Lipman, James Zahn, it was good discussion. I appreciate both of you being on. Thank you.

LIPMAN: Thank you.

Interesting parallel to Columbine and VA Tech shooting.

Don't know what to say - my opinion is that it's just bad for someone to feed their mind with any kind of garbage, Horrorcore or otherwise. You might think it's harmless but you can't be sure and to what level of harm it might manifest in a person is unknown.

It could be minor, like you look like such a freak that you've just ruined your income earning potential;

Somewhere in the middle like the horrocore dude who likes to brag that his girlfriend is a big fan of anal sex and fisting on the horrorcore boards and you are one of those girls who buys into that type of "relationship";

Or major - like you bludgeon four people to death.

A very interesting post, Claudici. I have never seen this interview either. I did watch an interview recently with the Insane Clowns Posse, and the kids that turn to violence claiming they are from that group.

This is lots of good food for thought. And is quite interesting to see the psychological factors that go into a person's mind.

NOt just one thing contributed to his act of violence...I do believe there are a number of things.

Good posting!!!!!

ziggy wrote:Don't know what to say - my opinion is that it's just bad for someone to feed their mind with any kind of garbage, Horrorcore or otherwise. You might think it's harmless but you can't be sure and to what level of harm it might manifest in a person is unknown.

It could be minor, like you look like such a freak that you've just ruined your income earning potential;

Somewhere in the middle like the horrocore dude who likes to brag that his girlfriend is a big fan of anal sex and fisting on the horrorcore boards and you are one of those girls who buys into that type of "relationship";

Or major - like you bludgeon four people to death.

So what is the solution to that? Censorship? Right wingers who make claims like this still have no answer to the fact that voilent crime is DOWN considerably even though we are now subject to MORE voilent media content, music, movies, video games etc, AND we have more and easier access to guns, but yet, in spite of all of this, voilent crime is down, considerably.

I dont think the music Sam was in to had anything at all to do with these murders, what I do think played a major role is the fact that he had terrible parents who gave him no foundation or self confidence with which to face the world with and deal with the problems that come along with that. Sam was looking for someone to replace that void his home life left in him and when Emma didnt come through for him he obviously lost it and made a very bad decision, but I dont think this was because of the music, it was because of the way his parents raised him, or didnt raise him.

...and ziggy I think garbage is in the eye of the beholder.One man's trash is another one's treasure...

Percy wrote:

ziggy wrote:Don't know what to say - my opinion is that it's just bad for someone to feed their mind with any kind of garbage, Horrorcore or otherwise. You might think it's harmless but you can't be sure and to what level of harm it might manifest in a person is unknown.

It could be minor, like you look like such a freak that you've just ruined your income earning potential;

Somewhere in the middle like the horrocore dude who likes to brag that his girlfriend is a big fan of anal sex and fisting on the horrorcore boards and you are one of those girls who buys into that type of "relationship";

Or major - like you bludgeon four people to death.

So what is the solution to that? Censorship? Right wingers who make claims like this still have no answer to the fact that voilent crime is DOWN considerably even though we are now subject to MORE voilent media content, music, movies, video games etc, AND we have more and easier access to guns, but yet, in spite of all of this, voilent crime is down, considerably.

I dont think the music Sam was in to had anything at all to do with these murders, what I do think played a major role is the fact that he had terrible parents who gave him no foundation or self confidence with which to face the world with and deal with the problems that come along with that. Sam was looking for someone to replace that void his home life left in him and when Emma didnt come through for him he obviously lost it and made a very bad decision, but I dont think this was because of the music, it was because of the way his parents raised him, or didnt raise him.

First, I did not suggest censorship and 2nd - that may be the lamest argument like, EVER (in my best Valley Girl sound)...that because I don't have a solution to crappy horrorcore and the possible bad influence on young peoples' lives that it may have - then it must be OK and above criticism. It may not be just a harmless fad or phase for some young people and just because we cannot or should not censor it does not deem it healthy, harmless or innocent.

Unlike Sam, Emma did have loving parents and yet she still turned to self destruction with the influence of her good friends who give interviews about how they would like to sexually molest children. I'm sure that's OK too; I mean, they just want to enhance their sex life.

Emma may have only hurt herself and not others in the manner that Sam did, but while they were alive I know she hurt and frustrated Debra because she could not help her daughter to experience more love than hate, more happiness than anger and to heal whatever in her soul was causing her so much pain. But alas, they are all dead now so what does it matter...no harm no foul right?

It frankly pisses me off that they have tweeners at their shows and recruit minors to become unholy a's; it's a free country and they can go down that path of self destruction if they choose, but I can't see defending it.

Horrorcore may not have been the sole cause of Sam's rampage, but stating that it had zero influence is irresponsible. It could very well have been a factor...not a factor that would effect everyone the way it did Sam, but one brick in the wall that came crashing down on four innocent people.

Your assertion that the way Sam was raised is more to blame than the music falls flat because many, many kids have really shitty parents and not every kid with bad parents kills; not every kid who is into horrorcore kills either; but BOTH together could make it more likely that a product of those experiences may cause a complete disregard for human life.

A bad decision is when you agree to let your stylist give you bangs. Sam did not just make a bad decision Percy - he made a deliberate decision to kill, waited for them to fall asleep, went outside and got the maul then began his systematic assination starting with Mel, then Debra, then Emma and then days later after living with their bloody corpses, he killed Mark. There is something much more to that than just "hey, he was mad because things weren't working out like he'd hoped, he had a pathetic childhood and then made a bad decision".

And I don't buy the crime stats. Crimes are getting more horrendous like the guy who decapitated a fellow passenger on a bus and sex crimes against children are way up as is human trafficking...just stroll on into WS Crimes in the News if you want to see for yourself. More and more babies are being dumped in garbage cans or killed in other ways after birth even though there are safe haven laws in many sates. Statistics schmistics - it depends on what they classify as what when they formulate them and I'm not going to get suckered into that especially by a government agency that spoon feeds it to me.

"One man's trash is another man's treasure" is a quaint little saying and fine when you are dumpster diving and checking out garage sales, but when it comes to desperate human souls full of pain and bent on destruction I find it inappropriate.

"A bad decision is when you agree to let your stylist give you bangs. Sam did not just make a bad decision Percy - he made a deliberate decision to kill, waited for them to fall asleep, went outside and got the maul then began his systematic assination starting with Mel, then Debra, then Emma and then days later after living with their bloody corpses, he killed Mark. There is something much more to that than just "hey, he was mad because things weren't working out like he'd hoped, he had a pathetic childhood and then made a bad decision".

Ziggy, you hit the nail right on the head. I, too, agree that there is something more to just being raging angry with Emma to justify the killings. When one looks into a reason of 'why' someone does something horrible...one has got to look at all aspects/angles of what may have caused or contributed to that person. One must delve (sp) into emotional, environmental, home life, predisposition, medical, physical, spiritual, neonatal...etc. And even then, some things just can't be the absolute as to the why's and what happened...but it helps to know what could have had an impression on someone...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

very interesting what this guy says. doesn't make sense, our justice system. But, if you watch the next few videos after this one, you get a lil more info, even from someone talking about the pple that bought the house...they don't live in it.

thought y'all might be interested in these if you haven't seen them yet.

...thank you for the link Maunsapt...

I still want to try to defend something I don't have a logical explanation for.
It's not inappropriate to me because I know for me death metal had value and I can compare that to the horrorcore mentality.
Just the last concert I went to they had a mock hanging on stage.I was with my friend who's dad shot himself in the head in front of her and her mom when she was ten.After that her mom went off the deep end and she went from foster home to foster home,dealt with drug addiction and all that stuff.Anyways we both love metal.When we looked at each other during that part of the concert our eyes lit up and we felt alive.It's hard to explain.
All I know is that from my experience people that love horror movies,metal and I'm sure that's also true for horrorcore were exposed to violence themselves and for some reason it has therapeutic value.It helps to deal.I wished there were studies done on this.
I still think Emma turned to SKR because she was going through something major and it was not SKR that had a bad effect on her.
I still think Sam went over the edge more because he did not feel accepted by them not because he was part of that group in the first place.
They talk about molesting children because I bet many of them were molested children not because they want to molest their own children.

Perhaps it can be a coping mechanism for some... but I would question whether or not it is a positive one. There has to be another way to face whatever haunts you that does not glorify and perpeturate it.

Some people cope with stress by drinking until they pass out every night. It may be their way to deal but it is not healthy.

The darkness takes you in and makes you feel alive and comfortable there...it gives you the illusion that you have control over it and that you've conquered the fear but in reality, it has comforted you and to it you belong. In reality it has control over your life, not vice versa. No true healing of such wounds can happen in the despair that accompanies the sadness and finality of death and gore. What's even worse is that it has trapped you into being very uncomfortable with all things that are light, beautiful and freeing - uncomfortable with healthier ways to overcome abuse and lonliness. It has you.

ziggy wrote:

Percy wrote:

ziggy wrote:Don't know what to say - my opinion is that it's just bad for someone to feed their mind with any kind of garbage, Horrorcore or otherwise. You might think it's harmless but you can't be sure and to what level of harm it might manifest in a person is unknown.

It could be minor, like you look like such a freak that you've just ruined your income earning potential;

Somewhere in the middle like the horrocore dude who likes to brag that his girlfriend is a big fan of anal sex and fisting on the horrorcore boards and you are one of those girls who buys into that type of "relationship";

Or major - like you bludgeon four people to death.

So what is the solution to that? Censorship? Right wingers who make claims like this still have no answer to the fact that voilent crime is DOWN considerably even though we are now subject to MORE voilent media content, music, movies, video games etc, AND we have more and easier access to guns, but yet, in spite of all of this, voilent crime is down, considerably.

I dont think the music Sam was in to had anything at all to do with these murders, what I do think played a major role is the fact that he had terrible parents who gave him no foundation or self confidence with which to face the world with and deal with the problems that come along with that. Sam was looking for someone to replace that void his home life left in him and when Emma didnt come through for him he obviously lost it and made a very bad decision, but I dont think this was because of the music, it was because of the way his parents raised him, or didnt raise him.

First, I did not suggest censorship and 2nd - that may be the lamest argument like, EVER (in my best Valley Girl sound)...that because I don't have a solution to crappy horrorcore and the possible bad influence on young peoples' lives that it may have - then it must be OK and above criticism. It may not be just a harmless fad or phase for some young people and just because we cannot or should not censor it does not deem it healthy, harmless or innocent.

Unlike Sam, Emma did have loving parents and yet she still turned to self destruction with the influence of her good friends who give interviews about how they would like to sexually molest children. I'm sure that's OK too; I mean, they just want to enhance their sex life.

Emma may have only hurt herself and not others in the manner that Sam did, but while they were alive I know she hurt and frustrated Debra because she could not help her daughter to experience more love than hate, more happiness than anger and to heal whatever in her soul was causing her so much pain. But alas, they are all dead now so what does it matter...no harm no foul right?

It frankly pisses me off that they have tweeners at their shows and recruit minors to become unholy a's; it's a free country and they can go down that path of self destruction if they choose, but I can't see defending it.

Horrorcore may not have been the sole cause of Sam's rampage, but stating that it had zero influence is irresponsible. It could very well have been a factor...not a factor that would effect everyone the way it did Sam, but one brick in the wall that came crashing down on four innocent people.

Your assertion that the way Sam was raised is more to blame than the music falls flat because many, many kids have really shitty parents and not every kid with bad parents kills; not every kid who is into horrorcore kills either; but BOTH together could make it more likely that a product of those experiences may cause a complete disregard for human life.

A bad decision is when you agree to let your stylist give you bangs. Sam did not just make a bad decision Percy - he made a deliberate decision to kill, waited for them to fall asleep, went outside and got the maul then began his systematic assination starting with Mel, then Debra, then Emma and then days later after living with their bloody corpses, he killed Mark. There is something much more to that than just "hey, he was mad because things weren't working out like he'd hoped, he had a pathetic childhood and then made a bad decision".

And I don't buy the crime stats. Crimes are getting more horrendous like the guy who decapitated a fellow passenger on a bus and sex crimes against children are way up as is human trafficking...just stroll on into WS Crimes in the News if you want to see for yourself. More and more babies are being dumped in garbage cans or killed in other ways after birth even though there are safe haven laws in many sates. Statistics schmistics - it depends on what they classify as what when they formulate them and I'm not going to get suckered into that especially by a government agency that spoon feeds it to me.

"One man's trash is another man's treasure" is a quaint little saying and fine when you are dumpster diving and checking out garage sales, but when it comes to desperate human souls full of pain and bent on destruction I find it inappropriate.

Why hello there Ziggy, good to see you back spunk and all. I agree, I dont particularly like any of it either but having grown up in about the hardest core punk scene there ever was in the early 80s I can tell you that it didnt make me do anything voilent even though it was a very voilent scene and much more voilent than this horrocore stuff.

I do disagree, however, that voilent crime is on the rise, statistics are clear, it is not. What makes it seem like it is, is that we have more access to news media now than ever before so we hear more about the crimes that do happen now then we did in the past, making it seem like crime is out of control, but in fact, it is not and you cannot argue with numbers, they do not lie.

Crime may be getting more voilent (I doubt even that personally, goi back to the days of al Capone for some very voilent crime, for example) but that doesnt equate to more voilent crimes taking place.

Percy wrote:

ziggy wrote:

Percy wrote:

ziggy wrote:Don't know what to say - my opinion is that it's just bad for someone to feed their mind with any kind of garbage, Horrorcore or otherwise. You might think it's harmless but you can't be sure and to what level of harm it might manifest in a person is unknown.

It could be minor, like you look like such a freak that you've just ruined your income earning potential;

Somewhere in the middle like the horrocore dude who likes to brag that his girlfriend is a big fan of anal sex and fisting on the horrorcore boards and you are one of those girls who buys into that type of "relationship";

Or major - like you bludgeon four people to death.

So what is the solution to that? Censorship? Right wingers who make claims like this still have no answer to the fact that voilent crime is DOWN considerably even though we are now subject to MORE voilent media content, music, movies, video games etc, AND we have more and easier access to guns, but yet, in spite of all of this, voilent crime is down, considerably.

I dont think the music Sam was in to had anything at all to do with these murders, what I do think played a major role is the fact that he had terrible parents who gave him no foundation or self confidence with which to face the world with and deal with the problems that come along with that. Sam was looking for someone to replace that void his home life left in him and when Emma didnt come through for him he obviously lost it and made a very bad decision, but I dont think this was because of the music, it was because of the way his parents raised him, or didnt raise him.

First, I did not suggest censorship and 2nd - that may be the lamest argument like, EVER (in my best Valley Girl sound)...that because I don't have a solution to crappy horrorcore and the possible bad influence on young peoples' lives that it may have - then it must be OK and above criticism. It may not be just a harmless fad or phase for some young people and just because we cannot or should not censor it does not deem it healthy, harmless or innocent.

Unlike Sam, Emma did have loving parents and yet she still turned to self destruction with the influence of her good friends who give interviews about how they would like to sexually molest children. I'm sure that's OK too; I mean, they just want to enhance their sex life.

Emma may have only hurt herself and not others in the manner that Sam did, but while they were alive I know she hurt and frustrated Debra because she could not help her daughter to experience more love than hate, more happiness than anger and to heal whatever in her soul was causing her so much pain. But alas, they are all dead now so what does it matter...no harm no foul right?

It frankly pisses me off that they have tweeners at their shows and recruit minors to become unholy a's; it's a free country and they can go down that path of self destruction if they choose, but I can't see defending it.

Horrorcore may not have been the sole cause of Sam's rampage, but stating that it had zero influence is irresponsible. It could very well have been a factor...not a factor that would effect everyone the way it did Sam, but one brick in the wall that came crashing down on four innocent people.

Your assertion that the way Sam was raised is more to blame than the music falls flat because many, many kids have really shitty parents and not every kid with bad parents kills; not every kid who is into horrorcore kills either; but BOTH together could make it more likely that a product of those experiences may cause a complete disregard for human life.

A bad decision is when you agree to let your stylist give you bangs. Sam did not just make a bad decision Percy - he made a deliberate decision to kill, waited for them to fall asleep, went outside and got the maul then began his systematic assination starting with Mel, then Debra, then Emma and then days later after living with their bloody corpses, he killed Mark. There is something much more to that than just "hey, he was mad because things weren't working out like he'd hoped, he had a pathetic childhood and then made a bad decision".

And I don't buy the crime stats. Crimes are getting more horrendous like the guy who decapitated a fellow passenger on a bus and sex crimes against children are way up as is human trafficking...just stroll on into WS Crimes in the News if you want to see for yourself. More and more babies are being dumped in garbage cans or killed in other ways after birth even though there are safe haven laws in many sates. Statistics schmistics - it depends on what they classify as what when they formulate them and I'm not going to get suckered into that especially by a government agency that spoon feeds it to me.

"One man's trash is another man's treasure" is a quaint little saying and fine when you are dumpster diving and checking out garage sales, but when it comes to desperate human souls full of pain and bent on destruction I find it inappropriate.

Why hello there Ziggy, good to see you back spunk and all. I agree, I dont particularly like any of it either but having grown up in about the hardest core punk scene there ever was in the early 80s I can tell you that it didnt make me do anything voilent even though it was a very voilent scene and much more voilent than this horrocore stuff.

I do disagree, however, that voilent crime is on the rise, statistics are clear, it is not. What makes it seem like it is, is that we have more access to news media now then ever before so we hear more about the crimes that do happen now then we did in the past, making it seem like crime is out of control, but in fact, it is not and you cannot argue with numbers, they do not lie.

Hey Percy! Since this subject has come up - it appears that violent crimes have not only been under reported (there is a particular problem with this in Detroit where only gunshot victims were classified as murders with anyone beaten or stabbed was an attempted murder) but also plead out to lessers to subvert the crime statistics making it seem like "their town" was a lot cleaner than it was. This is totally against FBI policy but do a little research and everyone has been scratching their heads on this crime statistic thing. This is not the only factor but is one of the factors. I read an article about some cops who were mad because they finally got some DNA hit that convicted a rapist - they knew it was him but wanted him to plead to a lesser so that the stats looked better, but they couldn't deny the rape charge once they got the evidence.

Perhaps longer sentences, 3 strikes laws, more conceal carry permits, more people at home and the way that crimes against children are many times plead to a lesser so that they aren't reported as violent crime are also factors.

PUHLEEZ - if it smells then there's something wrong I don't care if CNN tells me it's so.

You can philosophize all you want to my dearest wonderful Percy - wax and wane away but in your spiritual teachings I know you prescribe to the "as a man thinketh" theory. We create our realities. We create our own hell on earth. We create our own heaven. Garbage in - garbage out.

"You can get a statistic to say anything. 60% of people believe that." - Homer Simpson.

I honestly have no idea if violent crime is up or down nationally. I have not checked lately. It varies by region, reporting method, etc. I know of a police dept that seizes drugs and then drugs over a certain amount are reported to the feds. The feds seize the drugs from the local dept and report the seizure as well. The same material is reported twice and that gives the appearance that the total volumn is greater than it actually is. Many factors influence statistics.

The USA is statistically more violent that most of the rest of the industrialized world by most measures. That means something.

On to my next point..

Many factors contribute to any situation. For example, if a person is not wearing their seatbelt and is killed in a car accident were they killed because they were not wearing their seatbelt? Or is it becuase the other driver ran the red light? Or is it becuase they did not see the other driver run the red light?

No one single factor caused the fatality. All of the factors had influence. If you remove one you can change the outcome.

Horrorcore music is a contributing factor. It may not be a direct cause. It may not be the only factor but I think it is really a tough sell to say that obesssion with death and violence does not contribute to death and violence.

Good points, both of you. The bottom line remains, we simply do not know what happened to Sam to make him do what he did, whether it be his home life or something that Emma and Mel did to him while he was there, or a combonation of those things and many other things. Regardless, nothing justifies what he did and I certainly do not intend to argue such but for some reason I do find myself feeling bad for Sam in some way that I really cannot explain. I dont know what that says about me, probably not anything positive, but I cant deny what I feel even if it is very unpopular and makes me look out of touch. Basically I feel bad about the entire situation, those girls robbed of their future and the parents robbed of the best years of their lives, and all for nothing, in the end Sam didnt get anything out of it but perhaps some sort of twisted satisfaction, thinking somehow that they deserved what they got. Why? I have no idea, none of us do and we likely never will, but Sam is going to pay for what he did, make no mistake about that, he has likely 60 maybe 70 years of hel, a very difficult living environment ahead of him if his health holds up, and he will never again see the light of day as a free man.

As to what caused him to do this, the music, his parents, the way they raised him etc? I dont think we will ever know that either, its a question we can ask of many others of have done terrible and unimaginable things, some having come from perfect families with great parents and others no so much, good kids have done awful things and bad kids have good things, nobody really knows what drives a person to something like what Sam did, but I think the music had less to do with it and the chemicals in his brain, or lackthereof, a lot more. There was something wrong with him before he arrived in Farmville and likely even before he even heard his first horrorcore song or played his first voiloent video game. What made him do it is beyond me and something I will just have to leave and trust to the professionals who study these matters for a living. All I can add, in ending, is that I am glad another person didnt have to die for justice to be served, killing Sam wouldnt have changed anything, it wouldnt have brought Mark, Debra, Emma or Mel back, and life in prison without parole at a place like Red Onion is sufficient punishment for the act he committed, IMO.

Between the age of 15 and 22 the human male may enter in to a state of Musk. During this severeley emotional, and radical stage the testostorone is at a peak and the male can become violent. Showing signs of depression to emotional glee depending on how others react to him. Sam was under a emotional blindfold from heartache and alcohol/drugs. Being that he was desensitized by Horrorcore rap this was a natural cold reaction he had. Some people say do not open yourself up to demons. The human mind is capable of justifying anything with the proper rewards. When Sam turns about 35 he will look back on this and say "God I was stupid". This will be after he discovers and embelishes Christianity. Almosy eing obsessed with the bible he will go on to teach others the book and in his mind be forgiven and go to Heavan....

FARMVILLIAN wrote:Between the age of 15 and 22 the human male may enter in to a state of Musk. During this severeley emotional, and radical stage the testostorone is at a peak and the male can become violent. Showing signs of depression to emotional glee depending on how others react to him. Sam was under a emotional blindfold from heartache and alcohol/drugs. Being that he was desensitized by Horrorcore rap this was a natural cold reaction he had. Some people say do not open yourself up to demons. The human mind is capable of justifying anything with the proper rewards. When Sam turns about 35 he will look back on this and say "God I was stupid". This will be after he discovers and embelishes Christianity. Almosy eing obsessed with the bible he will go on to teach others the book and in his mind be forgiven and go to Heavan....

That is a theory...
Here is another one.
Bashing in the skulls of 4 people is never a "natural cold reaction." It is an evil reaction becuase he is a defective individual. When / if he is 35 he will still be a defective individual. When / if he is 85 he will still be a defective individual. If he reads the bible it will be out of boredom and it will have no more meaning to him than the people magazine he will read for the same reason. If he teaches the book to others it will be an effort to manipulate them. There is no good in Sam to uncover and he is not seeking any forgiveness. Sam is not a Christian nor does he want to be. When he dies he will not suddenly become an enlightened spiritual being all at peace among angels. He will die the same misreable unrepentant guy that he is now. If he had it all to do over again... he would. I don't expect to change your mind though.

It always seems so typical for prisoners to find Jesus. I have no idea if Sam can be "saved" for real or if as Scott says, he will just use it to manipulate, to make friends, to have supporters.

I do think his actions go beyond a sudden rage brought on by too much testosterone and drugs - I mean he did some POT and pills gang - this stuff brings you down man, it wasn't PCP or meth or some other tweeker chemical combo. How demented would you like your perp to be anyway? That's pretty bad - let me bring you back to a wood cutting maul which, let's face it, is an AXE. He chopped them in the head and face with an axe. He could have strangled them, stabbed them but an AXE??? In their sleep???

No. Think axe murderer and then think male adolescent angst/hurt/rage. They don't really add up to me.

If you fall into the beliefs of Satanism which these horrorcore folks do, then there are no boundaries...it's just do what feels good and take care of number one. Right and wrong are myths base in religion and they don't give a fuck. Will Sam ever be able to think any differently?

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Why hello there Ziggy, good to see you back spunk and all. I agree, I dont particularly like any of it either but having grown up in about the hardest core punk scene there ever was in the early 80s I can tell you that it didnt make me do anything voilent even though it was a very voilent scene and much more voilent than this horrocore stuff.

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Okay I re read this and it bothered me. I also went through a brief punk scene in the 80's. Mine was more late 80's early 90's but...hardly the point. We liked loud music and dock martin boots.
How could it have possibly been more violent than this horrorcore stuff? Dead babies on the end of spikes, mock killings, body parts, guts, gore, the delight in the suffering of others. The mere name SKR. Sick & Raz posting a pick of their logo drawn in the blood of a troubled teenage murder victim. Sam a cult hero in the community?? Please. Horrorcore is about as low as it gets.

I can only talk about my experience which was in germany but I was friends with some Punk kids and I liked Punk but these kids were really political.They took anarchy serious.They took over houses and spray painted "we don't want just want cake we want the whole fucking bakery" They vandalized cop cars.
Us metal kids were just working class ,low income kids dealing with our own situation.we were not political at all,we weren't thinking about the whole picture.Sick turned out to be a smart kid and he makes some political points but those kids into that music are really not about politics.Again I think I can compare the two.
Sam McCroskey does NOT represent horrorcore.Again I want to defend these kids,they maty be as low as it gets income and education wise but they have been disappointed by a world of hypocrosy where catholic priests rape children in confessional boothes and where the dress a woman wears to her wedding is more important than the love she has for the guy she's marrying...I could give 1000000000000000 examples but anyways I think what is healthy is balance and I believe confronting reality and the things we fear the most trough art and music can create such a balance.It's a form of anger management.
Look at the headlines at any given day,people that snap come from all different backgrounds,listen to all different music,what influenced them is their own personal devastations and how they are able to cope and deal with it.
and I believe coping skills can be taught in schools...but schools believe reading and math is more important.

One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people. He said, “My son, the battle is between two ‘wolves’ inside us all.
One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority and ego.
The other is Good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.”
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf wins?”
The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”

Snipped from my own post on Cherokee wisdom.

Horrorcore is not a way to find balance. It is feeding the wrong wolf.

I love that cherokee wisdom post.I have it hanging on Cici's bedroom door.
...but again I disagree that Horrorcore is feeding the wrong wolf.By facing the evil wolf and by outwardly acknowledging him you can defeat him and feed the other wolf inside.

Like I said the illusion that you have control over it rather than it over you is transparent in the defense that you bring up claudi. These horrorcore kids have no balance, give me an effing break. Their fucking lives are about SKR and that shit. The "bleed for it". They are family. Don't give me any excuses that it's somekind of healthy therapy. When you immerse yourself in that lifestyle you ARE feeding the wolf. If they aren't feeding that wolf, then which one ARE they feeding?