You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

ziggy wrote:Well first I'll address that just because you can recreate what happened forensically - you can't mitigate Sam's charges in those killings unless you negate the requisite mens rea...so while it will help to established what happened, it may not give the "why" and therefore without that - Sam can go down for 1st degree murder. You've been saying that the three women may have been a crime of passion or some other mitigating circumstance, but how will that come to light without it coming from Sam? That was the crux of my question.

(What do we call it...the admission instead of the confession? Since we don't have an actual police confession, I was referring to it as such. )
Next - Syn could be impeached as a witness, but he has some things in his favor - like being freaked out enough to disappear from the internet, "quit the biz" so to speak. He has not tried to cash in as far as we can tell. His testimony may hold weight based on these circumstances. He might be a very good witness for the prosecution. How will you impeach him?

AndresEscobar wrote:

ziggy wrote:Well first I'll address that just because you can recreate what happened forensically - you can't mitigate Sam's charges in those killings unless you negate the requisite mens rea...so while it will help to established what happened, it may not give the "why" and therefore without that - Sam can go down for 1st degree murder. You've been saying that the three women may have been a crime of passion or some other mitigating circumstance, but how will that come to light without it coming from Sam? That was the crux of my question.

(What do we call it...the admission instead of the confession? Since we don't have an actual police confession, I was referring to it as such. )
Next - Syn could be impeached as a witness, but he has some things in his favor - like being freaked out enough to disappear from the internet, "quit the biz" so to speak. He has not tried to cash in as far as we can tell. His testimony may hold weight based on these circumstances. He might be a very good witness for the prosecution. How will you impeach him?

Well, if you could determine the order of death, and lets say the three women were found to be killed within 10 minutes of eachother (i'm pulling this out of my ass), it's certainly suggestive of a "warm blooded" murder to speak. Remember, the defense doesn't have to prove anything, the burden of proof rests on the state. It's weird how we still don't know basic things about this crime such as the order of death.

Re: Syn's credibility as a witness: Yeah, except Sam gave his "admission" to him and he didn't go to the police. I would hammer that.

ETA: I would also hammer his "quitting of the business"

AndresEscobar wrote:

ziggy wrote:Yes thanks for clarifying that - Somebody - we are now assuming it was Syn called Raz - who told Shirm who called the cops. Man that's the one good thing ole' Andy Shirm did huh?

So you might get "Jesus told me to do it" barred from evidence, but there may be another confession out there in the testimony of Syn.

You might colloquially refer to what Sam said to Syn as a "confession" but it's very different from an actual confession to the police. Syn would be a witness. If you wanted to dispute what Syn said, do you think it would be that hard to impeach him as a witness?

ETA: since we don't really know what Sam said to syn, it's pretty hard to speculate about his testimony and what would come in, etc.

dangrsmind wrote:

AndresEscobar wrote:

ziggy wrote:Yes thanks for clarifying that - Somebody - we are now assuming it was Syn called Raz - who told Shirm who called the cops. Man that's the one good thing ole' Andy Shirm did huh?

So you might get "Jesus told me to do it" barred from evidence, but there may be another confession out there in the testimony of Syn.

You might colloquially refer to what Sam said to Syn as a "confession" but it's very different from an actual confession to the police. Syn would be a witness. If you wanted to dispute what Syn said, do you think it would be that hard to impeach him as a witness?

ETA: since we don't really know what Sam said to syn, it's pretty hard to speculate about his testimony and what would come in, etc.

Did he really quit?

e.g.
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dangrsmind wrote:

AndresEscobar wrote:

ziggy wrote:Yes thanks for clarifying that - Somebody - we are now assuming it was Syn called Raz - who told Shirm who called the cops. Man that's the one good thing ole' Andy Shirm did huh?

So you might get "Jesus told me to do it" barred from evidence, but there may be another confession out there in the testimony of Syn.

You might colloquially refer to what Sam said to Syn as a "confession" but it's very different from an actual confession to the police. Syn would be a witness. If you wanted to dispute what Syn said, do you think it would be that hard to impeach him as a witness?

ETA: since we don't really know what Sam said to syn, it's pretty hard to speculate about his testimony and what would come in, etc.

Did he really quit?

e.g.
[url=http://ichigosmusic.blogspot.com/2009/12/ichigo3se-wants-you-to-check-out-photo.html

Paximus wrote:I dont think anyone knows the order of death but if I am a betting man he made Emma watch some of it so she wasnt first IMO.

ziggy wrote:You know that has been mentioned before...what makes you think that? He made her suffer for being mean to him? Yikes! There goes all the heat of the moment or other non-premeditation ideas.

ziggy wrote:Hmmm. Ever any thought that Emma put him up to doing in her mom? Seems she pretty much hated her parents and the mom always gets the brunt of it when she's the custodial parent and dad seems to be uber passive.

ziggy wrote:Thanks Andres. No the defense doesn't have to prove anything, but in order to save Sam's ass, they better have something other than they were just killed 10 minutes apart...see what I'm saying? Just because they were killed close together in time doesn't negate the premeditation...especially if the first one was asleep at the time. Premeditation can be only minutes or seconds...it's just the formation of the state of mind right?

ziggy wrote:Hmmm. Ever any thought that Emma put him up to doing in her mom? Seems she pretty much hated her parents and the mom always gets the brunt of it when she's the custodial parent and dad seems to be uber passive.

ziggy wrote:Think about the fact that he had to make the conscious decision to go outside and procure a wood maul...bring it in and proceed to use it on someone. I tend to think Sam was so mad at Emma that his hatred just spilled over onto everyone. Where would the ball peen hammer have been kept I wonder, that Sam knew of its whereabouts?

AndresEscobar wrote:

ziggy wrote:Think about the fact that he had to make the conscious decision to go outside and procure a wood maul...bring it in and proceed to use it on someone. I tend to think Sam was so mad at Emma that his hatred just spilled over onto everyone. Where would the ball peen hammer have been kept I wonder, that Sam knew of its whereabouts?

We know that Sam went outside to get the maul?

ziggy wrote:Not for a fact, no, but I am making a presumption on the circumstances that we do know.

Wood mauls are usually kept outside near the wood pile and that since it was one of the weapons used it came into the house by someone's hand. The person bringing the wood maul into the home would do so for a purpose and since the purpose was not to use it to chop wood indoors, I would presume that it was to use in the OTHER manner in which it is known that it was used and used by the person who did inflict the blows with it.
Any other scenarios that make more sense? Hit me.