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    You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by AndresEscobar on Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:26 pm

    ziggy wrote:Well first I'll address that just because you can recreate what happened forensically - you can't mitigate Sam's charges in those killings unless you negate the requisite mens rea...so while it will help to established what happened, it may not give the "why" and therefore without that - Sam can go down for 1st degree murder. You've been saying that the three women may have been a crime of passion or some other mitigating circumstance, but how will that come to light without it coming from Sam? That was the crux of my question.

    (What do we call it...the admission instead of the confession? Since we don't have an actual police confession, I was referring to it as such. )
    Next - Syn could be impeached as a witness, but he has some things in his favor - like being freaked out enough to disappear from the internet, "quit the biz" so to speak. He has not tried to cash in as far as we can tell. His testimony may hold weight based on these circumstances. He might be a very good witness for the prosecution. How will you impeach him?

    Well, if you could determine the order of death, and lets say the three women were found to be killed within 10 minutes of eachother (i'm pulling this out of my ass), it's certainly suggestive of a "warm blooded" murder to speak. Remember, the defense doesn't have to prove anything, the burden of proof rests on the state. It's weird how we still don't know basic things about this crime such as the order of death.

    Re: Syn's credibility as a witness: Yeah, except Sam gave his "admission" to him and he didn't go to the police. I would hammer that.

    ETA: I would also hammer his "quitting of the business"
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    Percy
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by Percy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:34 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    ziggy wrote:Well first I'll address that just because you can recreate what happened forensically - you can't mitigate Sam's charges in those killings unless you negate the requisite mens rea...so while it will help to established what happened, it may not give the "why" and therefore without that - Sam can go down for 1st degree murder. You've been saying that the three women may have been a crime of passion or some other mitigating circumstance, but how will that come to light without it coming from Sam? That was the crux of my question.

    (What do we call it...the admission instead of the confession? Since we don't have an actual police confession, I was referring to it as such. )
    Next - Syn could be impeached as a witness, but he has some things in his favor - like being freaked out enough to disappear from the internet, "quit the biz" so to speak. He has not tried to cash in as far as we can tell. His testimony may hold weight based on these circumstances. He might be a very good witness for the prosecution. How will you impeach him?

    Well, if you could determine the order of death, and lets say the three women were found to be killed within 10 minutes of eachother (i'm pulling this out of my ass), it's certainly suggestive of a "warm blooded" murder to speak. Remember, the defense doesn't have to prove anything, the burden of proof rests on the state. It's weird how we still don't know basic things about this crime such as the order of death.

    Re: Syn's credibility as a witness: Yeah, except Sam gave his "admission" to him and he didn't go to the police. I would hammer that.

    ETA: I would also hammer his "quitting of the business"
    Yes him quitting the business could be contrasted with SKR not doing so and in fact pledging to get bolder and more blasphemous, "so, Mr Syn, what did you have to hide that you immediately quit your business and shut down all your operations, this isnt the behavior of someone with nothing to hide, in fact your colleagues at SKR did the exact opposite, how do you explain your behavior Mr Syn?"


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    dangrsmind

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by dangrsmind on Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:36 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    ziggy wrote:Yes thanks for clarifying that - Somebody - we are now assuming it was Syn called Raz - who told Shirm who called the cops. Man that's the one good thing ole' Andy Shirm did huh?

    So you might get "Jesus told me to do it" barred from evidence, but there may be another confession out there in the testimony of Syn.

    You might colloquially refer to what Sam said to Syn as a "confession" but it's very different from an actual confession to the police. Syn would be a witness. If you wanted to dispute what Syn said, do you think it would be that hard to impeach him as a witness?

    ETA: since we don't really know what Sam said to syn, it's pretty hard to speculate about his testimony and what would come in, etc.

    Did he really quit?

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    ziggy

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:37 pm

    Thanks Andres. No the defense doesn't have to prove anything, but in order to save Sam's ass, they better have something other than they were just killed 10 minutes apart...see what I'm saying? Just because they were killed close together in time doesn't negate the premeditation...especially if the first one was asleep at the time. Premeditation can be only minutes or seconds...it's just the formation of the state of mind right?
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    Percy
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by Percy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:38 pm

    dangrsmind wrote:
    AndresEscobar wrote:
    ziggy wrote:Yes thanks for clarifying that - Somebody - we are now assuming it was Syn called Raz - who told Shirm who called the cops. Man that's the one good thing ole' Andy Shirm did huh?

    So you might get "Jesus told me to do it" barred from evidence, but there may be another confession out there in the testimony of Syn.

    You might colloquially refer to what Sam said to Syn as a "confession" but it's very different from an actual confession to the police. Syn would be a witness. If you wanted to dispute what Syn said, do you think it would be that hard to impeach him as a witness?

    ETA: since we don't really know what Sam said to syn, it's pretty hard to speculate about his testimony and what would come in, etc.

    Did he really quit?

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    He did quit initially and issued a statement saying as much which included him saying he felt that he may have influenced Sam in a bad way. That statement is in one of our WS threads somewhere.


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    ziggy

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:39 pm

    dangrsmind wrote:
    AndresEscobar wrote:
    ziggy wrote:Yes thanks for clarifying that - Somebody - we are now assuming it was Syn called Raz - who told Shirm who called the cops. Man that's the one good thing ole' Andy Shirm did huh?

    So you might get "Jesus told me to do it" barred from evidence, but there may be another confession out there in the testimony of Syn.

    You might colloquially refer to what Sam said to Syn as a "confession" but it's very different from an actual confession to the police. Syn would be a witness. If you wanted to dispute what Syn said, do you think it would be that hard to impeach him as a witness?

    ETA: since we don't really know what Sam said to syn, it's pretty hard to speculate about his testimony and what would come in, etc.

    Did he really quit?

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    he he; "dangerous mind"...knows all of your secrets (and mine I'm sure) Smile
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    Percy
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by Percy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:40 pm

    I dont think anyone knows the order of death but if I am a betting man he made Emma watch some of it so she wasnt first IMO.


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    ziggy

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:44 pm

    You know that has been mentioned before...what makes you think that? He made her suffer for being mean to him? Yikes! There goes all the heat of the moment or other non-premeditation ideas.

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by DoctorZ on Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:46 pm

    Paximus wrote:I dont think anyone knows the order of death but if I am a betting man he made Emma watch some of it so she wasnt first IMO.

    I personally think the opposite. Unless there was some sort of pact (for something else) between he and Emma I think she would have been first.
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    Percy
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by Percy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:47 pm

    ziggy wrote:You know that has been mentioned before...what makes you think that? He made her suffer for being mean to him? Yikes! There goes all the heat of the moment or other non-premeditation ideas.
    Not sure why I think that but I have always sort of pictured it "You bitch you lied to me youre a fake and now its payback time, you like the wicked shit huh lets see how much you really like it" type of thing.

    Im just pulling that out of my ass but if he was in a fit of rage and decided he was going to kill people why not get his moneys worth and make her suffer more by watching it happen before she got hers?


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    ziggy

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:51 pm

    Hmmm. Ever any thought that Emma put him up to doing in her mom? Seems she pretty much hated her parents and the mom always gets the brunt of it when she's the custodial parent and dad seems to be uber passive.
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by Percy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:54 pm

    ziggy wrote:Hmmm. Ever any thought that Emma put him up to doing in her mom? Seems she pretty much hated her parents and the mom always gets the brunt of it when she's the custodial parent and dad seems to be uber passive.
    If we didnt have reports that they had already broken up before SFTW and she hated him on the trip back I would consider that but it doesnt seem likely he would do that for her after their breakup, unless he was really trying to win her back, but thats some seriously fucked up and twisted shit there to consider.


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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:59 pm

    Ha ha, as if there isn't some fucked up and twisted shit here already, lol.

    But yes, I see your point -
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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by AndresEscobar on Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:11 pm

    ziggy wrote:Thanks Andres. No the defense doesn't have to prove anything, but in order to save Sam's ass, they better have something other than they were just killed 10 minutes apart...see what I'm saying? Just because they were killed close together in time doesn't negate the premeditation...especially if the first one was asleep at the time. Premeditation can be only minutes or seconds...it's just the formation of the state of mind right?

    The defense has to create doubt as to premeditation.
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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by AndresEscobar on Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:12 pm

    ziggy wrote:Hmmm. Ever any thought that Emma put him up to doing in her mom? Seems she pretty much hated her parents and the mom always gets the brunt of it when she's the custodial parent and dad seems to be uber passive.

    I think this is a plausible theory.
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    claudicici

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by claudicici on Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:24 am

    ..I thought about that before also,I don't think that's impossible,that might even be exactly what turned emma off about sam,maybe she did plan that he would get rid of her mom and initially sam was completely thrown off by that and in the end he could have been like"is this what you wanted?"...and "here you want to watch your best friend die,too?"...so I also think what pax said that emma was third...
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    dangrsmind

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by dangrsmind on Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:37 am

    We haven't seen any specific evidence about the order of death unfortunately, so this will remain speculation until the police release some forensic results. I think this won't much before the trial, but perhaps the lawyers can say something more here.
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    ziggy

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:46 pm

    Think about the fact that he had to make the conscious decision to go outside and procure a wood maul...bring it in and proceed to use it on someone. I tend to think Sam was so mad at Emma that his hatred just spilled over onto everyone. Where would the ball peen hammer have been kept I wonder, that Sam knew of its whereabouts?

    I think that because he brought up the text he saw on Emma's phone to the cab driver and mentioned they got in a fight about it but that he waited until they fell asleep and left it might give us a clue; like there's a kernal of truth there. I think he waited until they were asleep and decided to kill them all. No doubt he was mad at Mel too, she was the back up for Emma and probably ignored him as well and we know that mom's are never very popular when you are a rebelious type.

    Sorry, I'm having a hard time trying to defend Sam when even the sparse bit of evidence we do have points to premeditation imo.
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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by AndresEscobar on Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:54 pm

    ziggy wrote:Think about the fact that he had to make the conscious decision to go outside and procure a wood maul...bring it in and proceed to use it on someone. I tend to think Sam was so mad at Emma that his hatred just spilled over onto everyone. Where would the ball peen hammer have been kept I wonder, that Sam knew of its whereabouts?


    We know that Sam went outside to get the maul?
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by Percy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:58 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    ziggy wrote:Think about the fact that he had to make the conscious decision to go outside and procure a wood maul...bring it in and proceed to use it on someone. I tend to think Sam was so mad at Emma that his hatred just spilled over onto everyone. Where would the ball peen hammer have been kept I wonder, that Sam knew of its whereabouts?


    We know that Sam went outside to get the maul?

    LOL at you and Zig with the sig lines.


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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:59 pm

    Not for a fact, no, but I am making a presumption on the circumstances that we do know.

    Wood mauls are usually kept outside near the wood pile and that since it was one of the weapons used it came into the house by someone's hand. The person bringing the wood maul into the home would do so for a purpose and since the purpose was not to use it to chop wood indoors, I would presume that it was to use in the OTHER manner in which it is known that it was used and used by the person who did inflict the blows with it.
    Any other scenarios that make more sense? Hit me.
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by Heroine on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:00 pm

    Well if they were indeed asleep when it happened wouldn't it have to be considered premeditated anyway. I mean if they were all asleep, how could it be anything else? How can sleeping people do anything to harm or piss you off if they are asleep?
    To be anything other than premeditated, wouldn't something have had to
    happened? This is a question by the way.
    I must be because I keep quoting myself and then having to delete it rather than editing....


    Last edited by Heroine on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by AndresEscobar on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:04 pm

    ziggy wrote:Not for a fact, no, but I am making a presumption on the circumstances that we do know.

    Wood mauls are usually kept outside near the wood pile and that since it was one of the weapons used it came into the house by someone's hand. The person bringing the wood maul into the home would do so for a purpose and since the purpose was not to use it to chop wood indoors, I would presume that it was to use in the OTHER manner in which it is known that it was used and used by the person who did inflict the blows with it.
    Any other scenarios that make more sense? Hit me.

    Emma and Mel, like Sam and other SKR members, like posing for pictures with weapons.
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    dangrsmind

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by dangrsmind on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:06 pm

    Maybe one of them was snoring very loudly.
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:07 pm

    Your are correct hot pink heroine! There can be no provocation from a sleeping person that would cause one to act out of passion. If one waits for them to fall asleep, that is a cooling off period in which the ordinary person would then come back one's senses and act out of reason and not passion.

    The lack of information coming out on the case is a teensy bit frustrating. Now remember your field trip on Saturday Smile

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