GENERAL OPINIONS

Originally Posted by hank Some new stuff ... "Sources tell CBS 6 Richard "Sam" McCroskey says he is "concerned for the victim's families"." http://www.wtvr.com/news/wtvr-mccros...,6000933.story

I guess someone beat you to it Pax. Other people have been writing him according to that link. haha!
And also WOW!!! No psychiatric evaluation? That's just odd. Maybe he figured what's the point?
Edited: I was just thinking, why hasn't any of his family members been to see him? Don't get me wrong, I would be really f***ing pi**ed off if my brother or son had done this, not to mention broken-hearted, but I don't think I wouldn't at least go visit them even once. Even if it was only to tell them how disappointed I was and just to see them one last time. I love my family too much to just dump them like that even if I don't agree with what they did. I would look at it as he is being punished for what he's done, but I couldn't turn my love off just like that. I may would even only be able to go see him once because of how stressful it would be for me, but I'd at least go once.
Wouldn't you guys?

Originally Posted by ziggy This is exactly why you are probably an excellent defense attorney Is it possible to feel sorry for Sam? Does it feel like he's just a thrown away kid in our society who ended up acting out because of his treatment by his parents? He perpetrated some pretty horrific acts. If he is left alone to ponder that without support, why is that sad?

I think it is very sad personally and I will tell you why. If I were to hate Sam and show him no mercy or compassion I fail to see how that would make me any different than he is. He obviously didnt show any mercy or compassion on his victims, I understand that, but I dont see how it does anyone any good to not show him some compassion and mercy and rise above it all, there is no reason to perpetuate the hate and cold blooded indifference.

I do feel for Sam and I will absolutely send him another letter (my last one was more media related) to let him know that the world doesnt have to be what he once thought it was, a cold dark and bitter place lacking of love, compassion and forgiveness. Show him the right way dont feed in to what made him do this to begin with.

Oh so that was you on the other site huh? Sorry to steal your thunder didnt even know if you knew about us so went ahead and posted it, thanks for sharing the letter. I do not know Sam and have no intention of being his friend or anything of the sort, his lifestyle and what he did makes me sort of sick, HOWEVER, he is human and we all make mistakes and I will write him something with a positive message and encourage him to use his time know to get a good education and enrich and broaden his horizons. Life doesnt have to be over for him he can educate himself and reach out to others in need.

We are all very interested in this case and respectful of Sam, I dont see any hate mail coming from this group as we are all adults and understand that such wouldnt do anyone any good, that said I HOPE YOU WILL CONTINUE TO POST AND FILL US IN ON WHAT SAM HAS TO SAY.

Originally Posted by peace_gurl Poor lit Sam....Wonder how poor little Mel's mom, dad, brother and family feel? Their faces were destroyed with a maul...Maybe he should have to look at pictures of what he did. What about Rev. N, Dr. Kelly or Em's family? We are worried about Sam? OMG, give me a break.

Well I agree with what youre saying. I am certainly not losing any sleep worrying about Sam but I also dont see the harm in writing him a letter with a positive message to try and reach out to him and encourage him to use his time to help himself and help others. I know the majority of people on websleuths are very pro victim and I can understand that but I really dont understand the lack of compassion for people who make mistakes, certainly I realize this is more than just the average mistake that you or I would make but nonetheless Sam is human like all of us are and we all make mistakes big and small. If you dont want to write to him that is great but I think writing hate mail to him doesnt do any good as I stated earlier and wont repeat again. Sam needs to be shown that the world isnt as he was led to believe it is by people like Shrim.

You will defend ppl like Sam.....I am glad they have you! This is personal, nothing against you. Let me explain.
I would not write him a hate or love letter. You defend ppl like him but I lived beside a kid with the help of her stepsister, that blasted many holes thru the heads of their parents......Parents that tried to teach them right from wrong. Good people. This kid babysit my little gurls. Her mother was family, she was family! I did not write her or go see her while in prison, but I did visit her grave after she killed herself. You know what I found there? A picture drawn by her little girl with an Easter bunny on it. She got out of jail after killing her mom and had a kid. She could not live with what she did and killed herself. She had a kid!!! She left the kid motherless. Justice? She was release from prison because they did not inform her natural father of her crime, she had been adopted by her stepfather.
Sorry to say but I do not believe you can help everyone. Some ppl can not be helped. Just like I believe some ppl never grow up. __________________

Yes I know it is more personal and close to home for you and that does make a big difference. I just believe very strongly in zealous advocacy for those accused of crimes, we cannot just allow the state to accuse people of things without rigorously challenging and forcing them to prove it and if they cannot then the person should walk regardless as to whether they did it or not. This isnt about me defending criminals it is about protecting all of us from government and the state, both of which I have very little respect for.

But again I absolutely know where you are coming from, my own neice was murdered in cold blood and it took me a while but I was finally able to face her killer and forgive him and had a hand in helping him get an education and become an advocate in prison to help others get off the destructive path he was on.

As far as who can and cannot be helped, I am not sure we can make that determination because our prison systems are not set up for actual rehabilitation and often people who are in prison come out more of a hardened criminal than when they went in, thats the facts.

Here is all I have to say on this subject....
"do unto others has you would have done unto you"
Think about it! To think any other way is just like doing what Sam did.
You don't have to be religious to know that this is the right way.

I can see how many of you have no sympathy for Sam and I do not blame you at all. What he did is absolutely horrible. I was questioning whether or not to write him because of my personal beliefs on taking another humans life (which is why I am completely against the death penalty) BUT I am also a firm believer that we have no right to judge another person in any way. The only person that knows what was going on in his head at that time is him. We weren't there, we don't know exactly what happened. Whatever caused him to take those lives is inexcusable, but until I find reason to do otherwise, I will not judge him for his actions. If I can make a positive impact on someone, or help someone out in any way, I will take that opportunity, and I think without a doubt he needs help right now not judgment. That is just my personal opinion and how I feel about this. I don't expect any of you to understand because I don't fully understand how my brain works some times either. If I feel something is right then it is right by me. I have had alot of people tell me (including family members and friends) i'm crazy, i'm a wacko and just plain sick for feeling any kind of sympathy for him, but I do and I cannot change that.

Also Paximus, I'm not upset in any way that you posted that message here, I'm glad you did! If I find out anything informative I will let you guys know but me and Sam don't talk about the case or anything that he is accused of, just normal stuff like music and daily life and whatnot.

I don't know....but I feel like Sam's getting more sympathy that drunk drivers do that accidentally kill people in car wrecks. At least there it's an accident. There's a chance if drive under the influence that you won't kill somebody, If you hack somebody up with a maul that’s just over the top negligence. I believe if Sam wasn't pure evil he could have consciously kept from killing at least Mark.

I know man I am very conflicted by it also but Emma and Mel and Deb and Mark are gone nothing we can do to bring them back and the least we can do is try to make something positive to honor their life and to me the only way to do that is try and reach Sam and get him on the right track to becoming a normal human being and working out his problems by sending him some positive words.


I found it interesting that Sam mentioned to that ScaryMary person in his letter to her that his cellblock mates are very much like a family to him, it is sad to consider it but it almost seems as if Sam may have it better where he is than he did at home, it really appears that the kid is really looking for a family that he never had and perhaps he felt he was losing that in the horrocore crowd because of he and Emma's falling out and now he is looking for it among those in his cellblock. That really tells me a lot about the kid and how much he simply yearns to have a family and people to support and look out for him. Its all very sad and its conflicting for me to show sympathy for him what he did was REALLY ****ED UP but I cant help the way I am wired and thats just who I am, I tend to have compassion for people like him and mercy and forgiveness for what they did, I really do not know any other way to act. I read so many of the threads on this forum on other cases and people are so willing to say things like they hope people get raped in prison or fried or killed even and I just cant relate to that sort of blood lust and desire for revenge. Prison rape is nothing to ****ing joke about, rape is NEVER ok no matter what and it really pisses me off when people make jokes about it, it tells me more about them than it does about people like Sam, its disturbing.

Originally Posted by peace_gurl I think what if I was Mels mom? How would I feel to give my daughter a ride to stay with a girlfriend and never "LOOK" at her face again. She had to bury her child without saying goodbye. Could I forgive someone for taking the life of my child? Could I forgive someone for never allowing me to put my hands and her face and tell her goodbye? Someone who was willing to destroy her life and the lives of me and my family. I guess I am not a "good" person but I believe you reap what you sow.

The thing is, we are ALL capable of doing what Sam did, everyone has a breaking point, most of us had decent parents so we learned how to keep that dark side in check, Sam probably didnt have that, I dont think we should all feel sorry for him I am just asking people to with hold their judgement until we know what really took place, at this point we simply dont know.

Originally Posted by peace_gurl would you say the same thing if it was your mother, dad, sister and friend? Maybe you can....sorry, I do not know how you could think like that but then again I do not know how anyone could bash and slaughter people, live with rottin' bodies and act like nothing went down. Maybe people who think they can save him should let him live with them.. save us a lot of money keeping him in jail or in the chair. Just my point of view, please take no offense.

I am not siding with Sam in the least bit and I have no idea how I would feel if it were my child, but for us as outsiders looking-in we have no idea what went through his mind or what his mental state was. As I said before I do not think what he did was right, in fact it's absolutely horrible, but as someone with panic attacks/anxiety problems due to my mothers illness and being her caregiver, I can say from experience that I know for a 100% fact that psychological problems do exist and that sometimes you really can't control your own thoughts or actions. With panic attacks, I can't control my fear and when I say fear, it's fear of no existing reason. I have actually had my arm lock up during a panic attack where I couldn't move it, or I would get so afraid I'd run circles frantically with no particular place to go or how about the few times I'd pull my car over and cry from being so afraid that I couldn't even drive. That's scary sh!t! Not saying my panic attacks can make me think so illogical that I will kill anyone or even think about it, but some mental problems do make people think differently and they actually react to their thoughts. Some people don't believe that people have mental disabilities, and at one time, as bad as it feels for me to say, I always thought those people were lying about their mental state just to get away with murder, but now I can't not believe it to be true, for now I have my own mental instabilities.

Originally Posted by nakedmanjoe Paximus I respect your opinions even though I don't agree with you some of the time. You are a person that I'm sure I'd get along with greatly and would hope to have the support of someone like you if I ever came into a situation where I needed people to turn to. Like you I generally see the good in people when other people don't. But when it comes to viciousness like this I can't see that there's any good in them. I believe some people that have anti-personality disorders can be very easy going, charming and have alot of charisma. I feel that this can be a cover that they use to gain peoples trust just to set them up so they can take advantage of the fact that human beings inherently think people are fair and instinctivley want to trust them. People don't believe that such evil can exist...and when they undeniably come across it they sometimes want to blame it on supernatural occurrences. I don't feel that these traits all applied to Sam but I do think there's people out there who feed off of our goodness in society in malevolent way. I just can't feel sorry for Sam. So I guess we agree to disagree. It's all good.

Absolutely, you make some great points and I cant argue against them. I am really glad that we have a great group of people here who can handle this discussion and have disagreements and do so in a responsible adult like manner. I appreciate those who disagree with me more than those who agree of course it is always nice to have people agree with you and validate your opinion but I learn a lot more from people like you who see things in another way and are willing to share yours views in a respectable and civil way. I enjoy debate and try not to make it personal, I dont think that those who have no sympathy or Sam are bad people or uncaring, we all are shaped by our own experiences and we each have somethin important to add to this discussion and that is what makes it great.

I must say, it is really nice to be able to come to a place to talk about this case without hearing "I hope he gets raped", "Fry him!", "**** that ******!". We all may not agree on things, but at least you all are adult about it! It is very refreshing.

Also, to RockDawg, I will post these up for you to see for yourself. I don't have any reason to misinform you guys. I just found a flaw (to my understanding) in the news report that was posted yesterday so I wanted to tell you all about it because if that small tidbit of info was false than who knows what else is
(But then again he may be out of his mind and just *thinks* they are being nice to him? Who knows...)

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Originally Posted by tapu The question of whether we're all just like Sam except for some input or environmental factor is interesting to me.... I think I've mentioned here before that I have a collection of various media about the Manson Family. For a long time, I said I was fascinated by what happened there because I could easily have been Sadie or Leslie or one of the other girls. But as I've gotten older, I start to question that. Maybe there is something in me that just could not cross that line. It truly feels as though there is when I focus on it, and yet most literature, culture, psychology, etc., would argue that we're all capable. Still thinking...

Tapu, I ponder this myself. I've spent a fair amount of time reading up on the psychology of serial killers. From my own personal experiences and research in life I believe that the vast majority of us can kill under different circumstances. I believe a lot of people can be convinced to do so by war, propaganda, self defense, jealousy, money and some others. I believe that if there are circumstances that can make us justify our actions we can kill. I don't think "normal" people can kill cold blooded without some type of influence unless they are suffeing mentally or have psychopathic tendacies. Of course this is my opinion.

Originally Posted by nakedmanjoe Damn Pax I have a whole lot of issues w/our goverment but comparing whats going on overseas w/Sam has got me kinda perplexed. My drunk ass needs to go to bed tonite. have a good Thanksgiving All!!

LOL no problem bud dont take me too seriously on here, I have my issues with the government and I am really not trying to compare whats going on in the mid east with Sam, all I am saying is that we all essentially have blood on our hands and we probably arent in the best position to be judging others for their mistakes.

I respect everyone's opinion and dont feel hesitant to call me out if you disagree, I dont take these matters personally, to each their own.

Originally Posted by RockDawg Generally , in jail they are trying to kill each other . But if he did indeed tell you that , this indicates that he certainly IS deranged and seriously out of touch with reality.

A little clarification on this, speaking from experience. Those who have read all my posts know what I am referring to. about 14 years ago I had the opportunity to be a guest of the jail in Front Royal, Virginia, for about 16 hours. The little cellblock they put me in had five other guys in it sharing three rooms (jail cells -- they lock you in these individual cells but let you commingle in a larger shared area during the day). Front Royal is a little country town. These guys I was locked up with were good old country boys and were very nice. I was nervous at first but soon realized I had nothing to worry about.

Okay, a year or so later the County of Fairfax, Virginia, a suburb of Washington, D.C. thought it might do me some good to think about things within the confines of their jail system. This time it was six days and they put me in another cellblock type situation. They "classify" you according to your crime so petty thieves and drunk drivers do not get put together with rapists and murderers who are eventually headed to the prison system (jail time does NOT equal prison time). Again the guys in here were mostly pretty nice if, though I hate to say it, not too intelligent. The biggest problem I had there, besides learning what it is truly like to have your rights taken away, was sheer boredom. It wasn't scary and no one tried to kill anyone.

Now -- a friend of mine recently spent 9 days in the jail at Bakersfield, CA. He said it was a nightmare. One wrong move could get you in a fight. You mostly hung with your own race and there was a lot of tension. He was in a general population type confinement with many, many more inmates.

My point is it, apparently, very much depends on the nature of the individual jail itself. Sam could easily be in a system where folks are not trying to kill each other meaning he is not deranged at all for sharing that info. Deranged for other reasons, certainly! But if he's the lonely jaded outcast most of us think he is he very well may be making some friends in there, maybe with some fellow "outcasts."

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I'm gonna jump into this discussion - first with a question ... how many here are parents?

Yes, I truly do think it makes a difference. I have a 21-year old son, and, as I've mentioned before, once I became a Mama to him, something happened hormone-wise and I became a Mama to all children. I hate Sam for what he (presumably) did to my friend Mark, but on the other hand, I feel terribly sorry for him. Whether or not Sam is mentally insane, he obviously has mental health issues, even if it's "just" depression (note I said "just" as I, too, have suffered from chronic depression for 35 years). Sam, no doubt, came from a broken (in many ways!) home, and is still trying to fit into a family-like situation.

On the other hand ... LOTS of people come from as bad, if not worse situations, and do not murder 4 people. Therein lies my frustration.

As for putting people to death ... again, I'm mixed. I asked my son to watch TV with me the morning they killed Timothy McVey (here in Indiana, so it happens). I explained to him what a horrible thing Tim did, how many lives were lost or irrevocably broken that day in Oak-City. But, to my son's amazement (and mine too, a bit), I burst into tears when they announced he was dead. The only way I could explain how I felt is that I still have a reverence for life (not in a religious way), and, even though Tim did horrible things, yet another life was lost by killing him.

I just can't come to a firm decision about the death penality, but that's the way I am ... too soft hearted, but also able to feel the terrible depth of other's tragedies.

I also have children. 2 girls both under the age of 5. I can agree with you when you say that when you become a parent, it changes the way you feel for all children. I couldn't imagine how I would survive with losing one of my girls. I feel truly sorry for Mels parents having to go through this. I sit back and wonder, if something like this happened to one of my kids, if I would be able to forgive their killer and try to help him down the right path the way I am trying to do for Sam and I honestly just don't know if I could.

Forgiving people, especially those that don't really deserve it, is one of the hardest things that anyone will ever do. Contrary to the popular wisdom it often requires both courage and bravery to forgive someone. But forgiveness is also freedom, don't forget that.

Guys, all the way up until the moment you decide, one way or the other, you have two possible ways to decide. After that, in any amount of time, you might do what you decided to do, or you might not do it, even if you'd decided to. (For a variety of reasons.)

A split-second decision is one in which the circumstances of the decision come about in a moment's time. You can't make a split-second decision about something where the pieces of the arguments were in place for a while. (I'm mad and want to kill them--should I or should I not?) You can make a sudden decision then, but not a "split-second decision." The latter has a special meaning where the elements have to come together in a "split-second."

Originally Posted by claudicici ...I'm sorry tapu but not everybody has a college degree,I don't think it matters what words are used it just matters what they intend to express and it can't get any deeper than the heart...

What? I'm not talking about what words they use (ok, so i called them "eloquent" for their "f***in everything" range of expression), but how can they say that Sam has gone so far astray when what he did is in line with all they're singing about and glorifying?

This seems like a no-brainer to me. Profess to worship bloodshed and violence, then what's your problem when there's bloodshed and violence? I just don't think that I could release a video about how I couldn't believe how horrible this was when I'd been singing about how really ****ing cool it was just yesterday.

Is it just me?

Originally Posted by ziggy I see where you're coming from, however we have FREE EDUCATION in this country and expressing yourself in your native lanuage shouldn't be that hard given the free sources for learning. It only takes a high school diploma...I have VERY successful friends with that level of education who have worked hard to use proper grammar and become great communicators. People dumb themselves down - it's a choice in my opinion - at least in this country. If you really wanted to improve there would be sources and volunteers at your disposal.

Wow. I think we must live on different planets.

My daughter has a friend. His mother was a drug addict, the father is long gone and nowhere to be found He lives with his uncle who is in his early twenties and works as a security guard to support him and another brother. He's been in and out of foster homes.

He does in fact have all sorts of resources at his disposal as you state, but he's starting out with a big disadvantage on so many levels. Much bigger than you imagine or allow for here. Getting out of his situation is going to be his entire lifetime project. I can't comment on each of these kids of course, but it seems a lot of the horrorcore artists and kids come from some of these types of backgrounds.

I think this is pretty harsh.

Originally Posted by tapu In this case, it's a holiday and everyone's doing it. Although, I will say that I don't go for anything like a fake hand hanging out of a trunk, and even the leg is pushing it a bit. I can handle a mummy for halloween, but not a baby's corpse. You may think that's splitting hairs, but in this case there are no hairs to split anyway because horrorcore is not in the gray area about violence and gore and mutilation. They are clear to the one side, as close to the real thing as you can get. Oh-oh!! Just fell off the edge: Sam.

I don't think we generally accept the "everyone's doing it" excuse when something is wrong. If something is OK when everyone is doing it, then why would it not be acceptable when only a few are doing it?

I think the feeling that they have found a crew that is different from most people, but much like themselves is what draws people to the horrorcore scene or any number of other underground scenes in the first place. Your revulsion only confirms that they are different and justifies their desire to cling to one another

My point with all of this is that different people will set different limits and we can't assume we agree on them. I was at some folks house for Halloween that did their garage up as the "Dead Disco" they had a few severed legs, martini glasses filled with severed fingers, punch with eyeballs, etc. Also one animatronic dancing zombie.

In my opinion horrorcore is closest to reading a horror novel. Although there are of course music videos, and some of those are way way over the top, but with just listening to the music and rapping you have to imagine the situation in your mind much like reading a book.

Compare this aspect of horrorcore with ultra realistic slasher horror films like the Saw movies: