Jonbenet Ramsey Case

Well I know its old but it is still a case I am very much interested in.

Do any of you have any theories, I will share mine if we get a discussion going here.

RDI= Ramseys did it.

IDI=Intruder did it.

RDI....there's just too much in the way they acted from day 1 to go with IDI...
just on top of my head....the ransom note was clearly written by patsy I think,noone else talks like that "fat cat" etc ,it's her handwriting too....I actually think the "burke did it version" makes the most sense...that kid was creepy as hell...and very jealous of his sister...I don't believe in the mom did it because of the bedwetting incident,it's possible though....I believe both parents were involved in the staging...there's just no way ,no how to me that the parents would act like that,starting with calling the cops when the ransom not stated "no cops",calling all their friends !!!!! to the scene,...Mr.Ramsey calling his private pilot to get the plane ready,when he just discovered his dead little baby girl....just nothing makes sense if it was IDI....

This is the case that brought me to the internet crime forums. No doubt in my mind IDI. I started off RDI until I saw the autopsy photos and read the volumes of information I got through Jameson's website (which is no longer active but archives of information will still be there).

I've been to JonBenet's grave and hung an angel in the tree - I used to live in Marietta, GA for a while. There was such a weird and vast cast of characters that surrounded that case, too many to mention now.

I hope it will be solved. I really believe that the Boulder PD messed it up irreparably - but there is always hope.

There is no deciding this based on media reports or the parents actions - there is too much evidence that one must sort through and spin on both sides. It takes time to really wade through that shit.

I am not sure.
I agree with Ziggy in the sense that 1] too much info that may or may not have been relased to the media to know for sure and 2] police seem to have made some mistakes right from the beginning. BUT can also clearly see Claudicici's point that the parents behavior just seems bizarre.
Ziggy, what is it about the autopsy photos that had you leaning away from parents?

ziggy wrote:This is the case that brought me to the internet crime forums. No doubt in my mind IDI. I started off RDI until I saw the autopsy photos and read the volumes of information I got through Jameson's website (which is no longer active but archives of information will still be there).

I've been to JonBenet's grave and hung an angel in the tree - I used to live in Marietta, GA for a while. There was such a weird and vast cast of characters that surrounded that case, too many to mention now.

I hope it will be solved. I really believe that the Boulder PD messed it up irreparably - but there is always hope.

There is no deciding this based on media reports or the parents actions - there is too much evidence that one must sort through and spin on both sides. It takes time to really wade through that shit.

Yea I know Jameson as well. I really dont know what happened but the more I research the more I am leaning towards Patsy grabbing JB by her shirt collar and dragging her upstairs after she got out of bed and came down for a snack or whatever, this caused the initial strangulation and at some point Patsy's grip was lost and JB tumbled down the staircase, likely getting wrapped up in the christmas lights that were strung about and these lights are what caused the black electrical burns on her neck and face, and after the tumble down she cracked her head open and the cover-up began.

I can see both RDI and IDI, its a very difficult case for sure.

Also what is up with the Boulder DA's office, it seems they sabotaged the case from day one, but why?

I do have to say that when I look at that crime scene I see STAGING and there seems to be no real way around it, everything just looks so staged. That doesnt mean the Ramseys sataged it but it is staged one way or another.

Also, I agree, so many strange people involved and on the fringes of this case especially McSanta and his wife.

Have any of you ever read that John Mark Karr was really an deep cover agent/operative that was used to try and smoke out the real killer? Really facsinating theory that I think could be true. But then recently I read he had a full blown sex change on HuffPost and is now living as a biological female, so who knows.

Jameson was a troll....she was a woman pretending to be Jameson,I'm sure you guys know that....
....I saw the autopsy pics as well,what makes you think IDI when you saw them?
...when I saw them I leaned even stronger towards the Ramseys....an IDI would have been more brutal I think,the killer left her beautiful....the main thing during the staging seemed for JonBenet to still look beautiful...main concern Patsy always had...
...if a kidnapper would actually take the time to write a 3 page ransom note on the Ramsey's notepad with the Ramseys pen and he wants a ransom,wouldn't he actually kidnap the kid and not kill her inside of the house?
...what about the pineapple,why would the Ramseys deny they had pineapple in the house are we really to believe the kidnapper brought pineapple with him? ( along with flashlight,rope, etc etc )

http://www.acandyrose.com/05102000Story-ThearingByMurphy.htm

Who was Jameson supposed to be anyway. All I know is that she was a staunch Ramsey supporter who claimed to know Patsy and had been to the house in Boulder several times and she posted on many different websites over the years about this case.

The problem with IDI is why leave a ransom note if youre not going to kidnap and demand money?

Also, when Patsy sat on the sofa after JR started screaming and everyone went in his direction towards the wine celler when he found her, she didnt move from the sofa at all, just sat there, that was sort of strange to me. And the fact that a woman who cares a lot about what she looks like and has a closet full of designer clothes got up to go on a trip to Michigan and put on the same clothes she wore to a Christmas party the night before? Very unlikely IMO, seems more likely she never changed clothes, never went to bed that night and was up all night staging a crime scene.

I never wanted to blame Patsy, I never felt good about it but I really dont see the evidence pointing towards IDI, I just dont and I have tried and tried and tried, all the evidence IMO points to STAGING.

If I were to go with IDI I would be taking a closer look at Johns client list at LOCKHEED. Alot of people didnt like John because he was very successful when he started his company, he started it while he was still active in the Navy and took it with him and as I understand he stepped on a lot of toes and pissed off a lot of very influential and powerful people including many of our elected leaders.

...and if there was an intruder he knew the amount of John's bonus...
...but again why kill the baby in the home if he wants a ransom?
..if it was an intruder I'd go with Santa...

...I have to say talking about that case makes me feel really bad...the whole media frenzy,just like the Casey case now,just because a little white rich beauty queen was killed.....there's baby's being killed every day but the media barely takes notice,they're just as precious as jonbenet,their parents don't live in big houses and their skin might be dark....and yes,mothers kill their baby's every day,as unimaginable as it seems,I think with the Ramsey's being rich and white it's just harder for people to imagine and it's the only reason people still talk about this when so many other beautiful babys are forgotten...

claudicici wrote:...I have to say talking about that case makes me feel really bad...the whole media frenzy,just like the Casey case now,just because a little white rich beauty queen was killed.....there's baby's being killed every day but the media barely takes notice,they're just as precious as jonbenet,their parents don't live in big houses and their skin might be dark....and yes,mothers kill their baby's every day,as unimaginable as it seems,I think with the Ramsey's being rich and white it's just harder for people to imagine and it's the only reason people still talk about this when so many other beautiful babys are forgotten...

Yea I agree, I have often wondered who makes the decision which dead baby will get news coverage and which wont. I mean this happens every day but we only get to hear about a select few, I wonder who makes the decision which ones make national headlines and which ones dont.

Regardless if the Ramseys did it or not, with the evidence being what it is and their behavior afterwards being what it was, they would have been charged and tried if they were you or I and not millionaires. Not that I disagree with them getting lawyers, I would suggest nobody ever talk to the police for any reason without an attorney present, but if they were just regular working class people they would not have been treated as they were.

Jameson is a real person named Susan. I've spoken with her; I know all about her, the good the bad the ugly and let me tell you be cautious of all the slime you read about her because a lot of it is not true - and then again she has her faults which is why I had a falling out at her site. Even with that, I can't ignore the truths that she brought forward. ESPECIALLY when it comes to the Ramsey case, take all that crap from a candy rose etc. and even Tricia at WS with a fricking salt block. Egos have gotten the best of people and I disagree how they've handled themselves.

The autopsy photos show how tight the rope was around her neck - that was not staged, she was strangled and hurt with it. Her hair was all knotted up in it and ripped from her head. She died from strangulation and a blow to the head - a skull fracture that was not discovered until the autopsy - a very large skull fracture as in a piece of her skull about 8 inches long being displaced like a missing puzzle piece. I've seen pictures of that too and you DO NOT get a skull fracture of that type by falling down stairs - you get it from being bashed in the head. The Ramseys have their faults, but I don't see them bashing her in the head like that. There is nothing in the evidence which can show an accidental scenario from the parents or anyone else. JonBenet did not die from an accident, she was murdered. Back in the day this kind of thing was unheard of - this sick depraved and brave type of perp who would come into the home. We know better now. As I look back I see how it could have happened - I see Leopold and Loeb and many other things.

There is no evidence tying Patsy to the handwriting Claudi - she tested best out of the people "who were in the house that night" - see you gotta read the fine print. Out of the two adults in the house, hers in the closest.

Don't get me started really, seriously. You need to do your homework FIRST, before I come in with both barrels and make my day. There is so much misinformation about this case that people take as gospel, which is now why I feel like hugging Andres!!!!

(ziggy hugs Andres for being the ombudsman of info.)

lol,that patsy wrote that crap is my own decision,it's in the way its written,I don't listen to experts...
I never thought it was an accident,JonBenet was murdered,like you said blow in the haed and strangulation..
...do you really think an intruder would take the time to wipe her down and re-dress her with the parents in the house,he would get the hell away from there as fast as he could?
...how do you explain the american doll send to Ramseys' office?
damn it ,Percy,now I'm distracted from my distraction,I'm supposed to be going through old websleuths threads...

ziggy wrote:Jameson is a real person named Susan. I've spoken with her; I know all about her, the good the bad the ugly and let me tell you be cautious of all the slime you read about her because a lot of it is not true - and then again she has her faults which is why I had a falling out at her site. Even with that, I can't ignore the truths that she brought forward. ESPECIALLY when it comes to the Ramsey case, take all that crap from a candy rose etc. and even Tricia at WS with a fricking salt block. Egos have gotten the best of people and I disagree how they've handled themselves.

The autopsy photos show how tight the rope was around her neck - that was not staged, she was strangled and hurt with it. Her hair was all knotted up in it and ripped from her head. She died from strangulation and a blow to the head - a skull fracture that was not discovered until the autopsy - a very large skull fracture as in a piece of her skull about 8 inches long being displaced like a missing puzzle piece. I've seen pictures of that too and you DO NOT get a skull fracture of that type by falling down stairs - you get it from being bashed in the head. The Ramseys have their faults, but I don't see them bashing her in the head like that. There is nothing in the evidence which can show an accidental scenario from the parents or anyone else. JonBenet did not die from an accident, she was murdered. Back in the day this kind of thing was unheard of - this sick depraved and brave type of perp who would come into the home. We know better now. As I look back I see how it could have happened - I see Leopold and Loeb and many other things.

There is no evidence tying Patsy to the handwriting Claudi - she tested best out of the people "who were in the house that night" - see you gotta read the fine print. Out of the two adults in the house, hers in the closest.

Don't get me started really, seriously. You need to do your homework FIRST, before I come in with both barrels and make my day. There is so much misinformation about this case that people take as gospel, which is now why I feel like hugging Andres!!!!

(ziggy hugs Andres for being the ombudsman of info.)

I agree which is why I have kept an open mind. MOST of what we heard in the media and online was not true, for example Patsy was cleared by several handwriting experts but that isnt what the media and the BORG (as Jameson fondly calls them lol) tell you. Also, the reports that Burke was heard in the background of the 9-11 call after JR and PR told authorties he was alseep was FALSE, the enhanced tape clearly indicates that Burke was NOT heard in the background yet people still repeat this misinformation over and over even today.

I have done my homework no worry there, I have read all the books, studied all the evidence released, seen the autopsy photos and read all the depositions and watched all the documentaries and I would say 75% of the crap people keep repeating over and over online is misinformation that started as rumor (by people like Tricia) and soon became fact.

Still, I keep an open mind but I cant rule out the possiblity that Patsy was involved and her death was accidental and you cant either, it just cannot be done with the evidence we have in front of us, but by the same token one also cannot rule out that an intruder did it. This case, more than any other I know of, a real classic whodunit for sure.

claudicici wrote:lol,that patsy wrote that crap is my own decision,it's in the way its written,I don't listen to experts...
I never thought it was an accident,JonBenet was murdered,like you said blow in the haed and strangulation..
...do you really think an intruder would take the time to wipe her down and re-dress her with the parents in the house,he would get the hell away from there as fast as he could?
...how do you explain the american doll send to Ramseys' office?
damn it ,Percy,now I'm distracted from my distraction,I'm supposed to be going through old websleuths threads...

LOL get back to your project and get busy I am just trying to make sure we all still have interesting things to talk about around here and we dont lose the group.

...the fact that patsy wore the same clothes again is another good point pax,there's not one woman in the entire world I think that has more than 1 outfit ,that would put on the same clothes she wore to a PARTY the night before to get on an airplane in the morning....no way...
these are just a few of the facts someone would have to explain to me before I could begin to think IDI.
...the clothes patsy wore
...the 3 page ransom note
...the pineapple
...the american doll send to the office
....JonBenet being wiped down and dressed
...and I have no problem at all imagining someone would enter a home and kill a child,I just don't think if that was his objective he would write a long ransom note,feed pineapple to the kid,take time afterwards to make the body look presentable etc etc

Percy wrote:

claudicici wrote:lol,that patsy wrote that crap is my own decision,it's in the way its written,I don't listen to experts...
I never thought it was an accident,JonBenet was murdered,like you said blow in the haed and strangulation..
...do you really think an intruder would take the time to wipe her down and re-dress her with the parents in the house,he would get the hell away from there as fast as he could?
...how do you explain the american doll send to Ramseys' office?
damn it ,Percy,now I'm distracted from my distraction,I'm supposed to be going through old websleuths threads...

LOL get back to your project and get busy I am just trying to make sure we all still have interesting things to talk about around here and we dont lose the group.

yes,sir...I'll get ready to go to work now, should have plenty of time while I'm there

It does piss me off that the Ramseys had their lives destroyed over this and I would never go on record and say they murdered their daughter or that Patsy was a monster or an abusive mother or that John sexually abused her etc. Thats what the people at websleuths do, Ziggy and thats my issue with them, in fact before their was a websleuths those very same people that became websleuths were some of the most vocal in the media and online in sacrificing the Ramseys, something I absolutely do not agree with since there was no real evidence pointing to their guilt but there was also no real evidence suggesting their innocence either. I think they should have been given the benefit of doubt for sure and more effort should have been put in to looking at IDI as opposed to looking at them, but people like Tricia and others at websleuths do this same thing all the time, they think they are victims advocates and they are willing to sacrifice anyone and everyone to make themselves look and feel important and useful when all they are really doing is creating more victims and destroying more lives. There is nothing wrong with discussing the possibility that the Ramseys were involved just as there is nothing wrong with discussing the idea that an intruder did it, but that isnt what they did, they went off and started calling Patsy a monster and John a child molestor almost from day one and that is what really pisses me off the most. Patsy was basically killed by those people, the stress she was under because of them and their media cohorts is likely what caused her cancer to come back and finally kill her.

Ziggy what did you ever make of that "Mystery Woman" from California who said JB was killed because she was part of an organized pedophile ring and that she herself was part of it also.

I always thought that was an interesting theory, are you familiar with the FRANKLIN CREDIT UNION scandal and its connection to an organized child sex ring involving BOYS TOWN and many republican elected officials including Bush Sr? I spent years researching that case and this stuff is very real.

I agree Perc - the Ramseys should be discussed, disected etc. but not persecuted. I am a huge victim's rights advocate and I want JB's killer to be found. I have no dog in the fight for the Ramseys but I think people will persecute them for being wealthy as much as they would look down on a convict or a low life. It's classism at it's worst! Those who do just have a big ole chip on their shoulder as far as I'm concerned and it's no better than being racist in my eyes. See people for what they are not the stereotype. I'm poor and struggling but I don't hate them for being successful geez.

I have rich, I mean rich friends. I knew a lot of wealthy people in GA. I know my friends with money who are also down to earth because of how they were raised and they would wear the same clothes that they wore the night before - "casual" party clothes. That outfit was not an evening gown for God's sakes. People get dressed for travel. They like to arrive looking neat to greet people and then they shower and change. Traveling makes you grimey. I wear the same clothes sometimes the next day because I shower, wear deoderant and I don't smell bad and neither do my clothes. I see it as convenient: you are tired, your clothes are right there and you'll feel dirty after traveling so just wear the same outfit. That has never been any clue in my mind as to a cover up or a murder. Now don't be all grossed out but... I don't wash my hair every day either! E gads.

As for the woman and the Fleet White/Ramsey satanic abuse sex scandal - I didn't put much faith in it. She was very troubled and I think it's delusional. Fleet has bothered me though personally and I have nothing to back that up but something was odd there. I read all the links to the scandal with Boys Town and I get that it happens and it is real but sometimes if you paint everything with that broad "maybe" brush it can get murky out there especially if you have mentally disturbed people changing their story etc.

Perps are creepy. They hide in people's homes. They are enormously brave; they do weird stuff that doesn't make any sense to anyone until they are caught. I go more with John Douglas of the (formerly) FBI and his theory. Ain't no way in hell Patsy knew references to dude movies. Only I do that, but no Southern woman I've ever known would. There wasn't a lot to be wiped down, he did not ejaculate or if he did he could have concealed it. Experts have contradicted the pineapple and when it could have been ingested and the stun gun marks are interesting to say the least.

I have always wondered what does a parent do when the whole world thinks they killed their daughter and they didn't? This is not Casey Anthony, these people were not out partying, they were genuinely devastated. I felt literally sick to my stomach at WS with that kind of hatred being thrown toward them but I stayed and voiced my opinion in the name of balance and to find out the truth. I still wander in there from time to time and try to offer a little reason, but it is no use. If they did it, they should be hated, but not until we know for sure because the risk is just too awful to put grieving parents in the line of fire with such little, LITTLE evidence.

It is a real big whodoneit. Whoever did it hated that little girl just like people hate her parents. Whoever did it meant to do it. I'm sure there are parents who would strangle their child with a garrot and bash them in the head and then violate them sexually with a broken paint brush handle...problem is neither of the R's would ever fit that profile. They might be egotistical assholes, but they aren't garrot killers imo.

The note is not evidence of staging to me; it may have been a way to pass the time or try and be clever and throw people off (kind of like Sam calling the cops to start and intruder theory if that was his actual motive) and it actually DID work. When it was thought to be a kidnapping, crime scene violated, time lost...there you go. There are so many non-issues in that case and it is becoming that way in State v. Anthony because of the weirdos who insert themselves into cases. Egos will also kill a decent investigation (cough Steve Thomas).

You have to look at the evidence and unfortunately evidence that was IDI was never looked at seriously the minute the Ramseys were under suspicion and when someone did try to point it out, they were shut down. That is not a search for the truth, that is blind ego.

I'm glad the Ramseys got an attorney. Even though they've been ciriticized for it, it was the smart thing to do.

Hey Percy, now I know how you have seen Lin Wood in action. I would want him on my side - for sure.

ziggy wrote:I agree Perc - the Ramseys should be discussed, disected etc. but not persecuted. I am a huge victim's rights advocate and I want JB's killer to be found. I have no dog in the fight for the Ramseys but I think people will persecute them for being wealthy as much as they would look down on a convict or a low life. It's classism at it's worst! Those who do just have a big ole chip on their shoulder as far as I'm concerned and it's no better than being racist in my eyes. See people for what they are not the stereotype. I'm poor and struggling but I don't hate them for being successful geez.

I have rich, I mean rich friends. I knew a lot of wealthy people in GA. I know my friends with money who are also down to earth because of how they were raised and they would wear the same clothes that they wore the night before - "casual" party clothes. That outfit was not an evening gown for God's sakes. People get dressed for travel. They like to arrive looking neat to greet people and then they shower and change. Traveling makes you grimey. I wear the same clothes sometimes the next day because I shower, wear deoderant and I don't smell bad and neither do my clothes. I see it as convenient: you are tired, your clothes are right there and you'll feel dirty after traveling so just wear the same outfit. That has never been any clue in my mind as to a cover up or a murder. Now don't be all grossed out but... I don't wash my hair every day either! E gads.

As for the woman and the Fleet White/Ramsey satanic abuse sex scandal - I didn't put much faith in it. She was very troubled and I think it's delusional. Fleet has bothered me though personally and I have nothing to back that up but something was odd there. I read all the links to the scandal with Boys Town and I get that it happens and it is real but sometimes if you paint everything with that broad "maybe" brush it can get murky out there especially if you have mentally disturbed people changing their story etc.

Perps are creepy. They hide in people's homes. They are enormously brave; they do weird stuff that doesn't make any sense to anyone until they are caught. I go more with John Douglas of the (formerly) FBI and his theory. Ain't no way in hell Patsy knew references to dude movies. Only I do that, but no Southern woman I've ever known would. There wasn't a lot to be wiped down, he did not ejaculate or if he did he could have concealed it. Experts have contradicted the pineapple and when it could have been ingested and the stun gun marks are interesting to say the least.

I have always wondered what does a parent do when the whole world thinks they killed their daughter and they didn't? This is not Casey Anthony, these people were not out partying, they were genuinely devastated. I felt literally sick to my stomach at WS with that kind of hatred being thrown toward them but I stayed and voiced my opinion in the name of balance and to find out the truth. I still wander in there from time to time and try to offer a little reason, but it is no use. If they did it, they should be hated, but not until we know for sure because the risk is just too awful to put grieving parents in the line of fire with such little, LITTLE evidence.

It is a real big whodoneit. Whoever did it hated that little girl just like people hate her parents. Whoever did it meant to do it. I'm sure there are parents who would strangle their child with a garrot and bash them in the head and then violate them sexually with a broken paint brush handle...problem is neither of the R's would ever fit that profile. They might be egotistical assholes, but they aren't garrot killers imo.

The note is not evidence of staging to me; it may have been a way to pass the time or try and be clever and throw people off (kind of like Sam calling the cops to start and intruder theory if that was his actual motive) and it actually DID work. When it was thought to be a kidnapping, crime scene violated, time lost...there you go. There are so many non-issues in that case and it is becoming that way in State v. Anthony because of the weirdos who insert themselves into cases. Egos will also kill a decent investigation (cough Steve Thomas).

You have to look at the evidence and unfortunately evidence that was IDI was never looked at seriously the minute the Ramseys were under suspicion and when someone did try to point it out, they were shut down. That is not a search for the truth, that is blind ego.

I'm glad the Ramseys got an attorney. Even though they've been ciriticized for it, it was the smart thing to do.

Hey Percy, now I know how you have seen Lin Wood in action. I would want him on my side - for sure.

I repsect Lin Wood, he plays hardball and doesnt let anyone fuck with his clients, my first experience with him was when he defended the Atlanta Olympic bomber, I knew immediately he knew what he was doing and when the Ramseys hired him I also knew right then that they would be represented agressively and Wood would employ his infamous scorched earth way of doing things and frankly, like it or not, it works and its usually the way I handle things of that nature also. You go after everything in sight and deny the enemy oxygen.

...that's why I still think Burke is the most likely suspect...I just don't see any parents in a million years ,do what the Ramsey's did....calling the cops AND all their friends when the ransom note specifically states not to?...that they're being watched?...sending their son to a friends house who may be the killer at that point?...getting a plane ready to fly out minutes after you found your dead child?..getting your sister in law to dress up as a cop and get your golf clubs out of the house because you absolutely need them in a situation like that?....going on TV and saying you forgive whoever did this?.....and I'm sorry I havn't met anyone ever,that would wear sweaty,smelly party clothes the next day on a plane trip....unless they're a man...or Ziggy or Patsy Ramsey,I guess....

Ziggy why did Fleet White and his wife turn on them so fast in your opinion?

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/The-Pineapple-Evidence
..this shows all sides of it...I like that website,it's completely non biased and you get to make up your own mind.