GENERAL OPINIONS

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wow, looks like this thread is about to get ugly.

The DP debate is a pointless one. Some people think it's justified. Some people love it and get off on it. Some people find it abhorrent. Some people can tolerate it in limited circumstances. No one is going to change anyone's opinion about it.

I am Jewish not only have I read the bible but I have read it in its original unedited unchanged language unlike the KJV which has been edited changed and altered to fit all sorts of different political agendas over the years and that doesnt even bring in to the discussion the fact that over 54 books are missing from the bible supressed by papal councils and deemed heretical books themselves which were used by earliest Christian communities and which tell a completely different story than the ones the popes decided to include in the canon. Not only do I know what the bible says but I know what it says in Hebrew the way it was intended to be read and I can tell you that the english translation that everyone reads is about 50% inaccurate on most accounts simply because you cant translate languages that accurately, especially the kind of language used in biblical times.

Jesus Peter Paul and John the Baptist just to name a few were all killed by the roman dealth pentalty so I find it ironic that christians can support such a thing and I stand by my suggestion that there is no way Jesus would support the DP as we know it in this country today.

Wow your version of Jesus is pretty pissed off.

Of course for those of us that don't believe in new testament you've just listed some of the sorts of things that seem contradictory and make us wonder about other less self contradictory systems such as Buddhism.


Angry Jesus Scares Me...

well this is the U.S.A and you are free to think how you want.. but from what I understand and seen in the Bible that Jesus did not oppose the Death Penalty.

The Jesus of the Bible supported the death penalty. It was not His purpose for coming. Therefore, He said only a little about it. But He supported it nonetheless. When He returns to the earth the next time, His perspective will be different. Then, He will come as judge and will be executing the death penalty (see Revelation 19:11-15).

The problem has nothing to do with the clarity of scripture. It has everything to do with the carnal preconceptions of man. Man wants a toothless Jesus. He wants the Jesus who suffers the little children to come but he rejects the Jesus who runs the moneychangers out of the temple with a whip. He wants a Jesus who will smile on his fornication and adultery, on his dishonesty and hypocrisy, with a boys-will-be-boys look. He does not want the Jesus who called the Pharisees a bunch of ugly names (see Matthew 23) or the One who talked about hell more than He talked about heaven.

In short, modern man wants, and so envisions, “another Jesus.”

Jesus believed in the death penalty. It was established by God, codified by the law, supported by Jesus Himself and sustained by the Apostle Paul. Theologians have no biblical evidence against it. They only have their perception of another Jesus. I don't follow that other Jesus I remain faithful to the Jesus of the Holy Bible. __________________

Originally Posted by NativeGirl Look I am not trying to tell you that you are wrong.. I am just sharing what I think is right.. You are free to think how you want... it freaks me out the way you think to be truthful... LOL

What exactly freaks you out, that I have compassion for others regardless of who they are and what they do? There are untold millions of Buddhists all over the world who believe this and all I am pointing out is this is what Jesus also taught the difference is as a Buiddhist I live it and dont just preach it.

No killing period.

Compassion and forgiveness for all sentient beings because frankly we are all in a sad state of suffering and misery on some level and that will never end until you are ready to make it stop if you dont put forth the effort to make it stop it will continue over and over and over and over. If thats what you want ok, I dont want that.

Originally Posted by NativeGirl There is a technical difference between killing and murder. The taking of a human life, in some cases, is justified (not murder). In Exodus 20: 13 we read, "thou shalt not kill." However, those under Moses' Law (theocracy) who committed capital offenses such as murder (unlawful taking of a human life) were to be "surely put to death" (Ex. 21: 12). The origin of the death penalty. "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made He man (Gen. 9: 6). God ordained the death penalty. God also appointed "man" to execute the death penalty. In Romans 13: 1-7 the "sword" belonging to the civil powers is not to be born in vain (vs. 4). Those who oppose correct capital punishment are opposing God who instituted and commands it! If the death penalty were inherently wrong, Paul would not have offered to freely yield to it. Hear him: "For if I be an offender, or have committed anything worthy of death, I refuse not to die..."(Acts 25: 11). Beloved, the death penalty, when correctly exercised, is not murder because God legislated capital punishment. As man seeks to remove God from right and wrong and morals in general, we will continue to call evil good and good evil (Isa. 5: 20). The very concept of "punishment" seems to have departed from the thinking of many (please carefully read Romans 13: 1-7). Surely we do not question the "morals" of God! source : http://www.biblequestions.org/Archives/BQAR237.htm

I don't question the morals of God, its the men and women who interpret God's word to mean whatever they want it to mean that I worry about.

Originally Posted by NativeGirl There is a technical difference between killing and murder. The taking of a human life, in some cases, is justified (not murder). In Exodus 20: 13 we read, "thou shalt not kill." However, those under Moses' Law (theocracy) who committed capital offenses such as murder (unlawful taking of a human life) were to be "surely put to death" (Ex. 21: 12). The origin of the death penalty. "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made He man (Gen. 9: 6). God ordained the death penalty. God also appointed "man" to execute the death penalty. In Romans 13: 1-7 the "sword" belonging to the civil powers is not to be born in vain (vs. 4). Those who oppose correct capital punishment are opposing God who instituted and commands it! If the death penalty were inherently wrong, Paul would not have offered to freely yield to it. Hear him: "For if I be an offender, or have committed anything worthy of death, I refuse not to die..."(Acts 25: 11). Beloved, the death penalty, when correctly exercised, is not murder because God legislated capital punishment. As man seeks to remove God from right and wrong and morals in general, we will continue to call evil good and good evil (Isa. 5: 20). The very concept of "punishment" seems to have departed from the thinking of many (please carefully read Romans 13: 1-7). Surely we do not question the "morals" of God! source : http://www.biblequestions.org/Archives/BQAR237.htm

I don't question the morals of God, its the men and women who interpret God's word to mean whatever they want it to mean that I worry about.

Originally Posted by NativeGirl I dont know you just kinda creep me out with the way you think.... and why do you have the Sex Pistols up?? I never heard of a Buddhist playing that kind of music.. what type are u?

LOL the music is meaningless and has no bearing on my life, I like punk music because I have always been sort of rebelious towards conventional ways of thinking. If you listen to the lyrics of the Sex Pistols you will understand what I am saying.

Let me see if I can explain this from a Buddhist POV. Sam's actions are only one half of an incomplete circle, your reaction to his actions are what will determine whether that circle completes itself and starts anew and continues an endless cycle of killing. If your reaction is anger, negativity, retribution etc then the circle will complete itself and continue on and on and on with no end, killing with beget more killing which will beget more killing.

Now if you want to put an end to that then you need to rid yourself of all negative emotion and feelings and detach yourself from those sort of things and understand why Sam did what he did. You see while most people ask themselves "why do people like Sam do what they did" I do not need to ask myself that because I know why he did what he did, I know exactly why he did what he did, its no mystery to me at all. Life is suffering, it is misery and we all react to that in our own way, Sam did what he did because that is what his karma dictates and the only way to put an end to that is to have compassion for the suffering and misery of all beings, to rid yourself of all negativity and need for revenge and to show love and compassion so that you can become a peaceful enlightened being and ensure that the endless loop of murder and mayhem doesnt complete itself and finally and end to all the suffering and misery that we all experience will come about.

See in the Buddhist philosophy those who call for Sams head on a platter will likely BECOME Sam at some point and do exactly what he did you will suffer the consequences of those negative thoughts one way or another because that stuff is like cancer it eats away at you very slowly and consumes you and there is nothing you can do to change that except rid yourself of it by showing compassion for the suffering and misery of all mankind and teaching others to do so, this is the only way we will bring a final end to this madness, the murder and the mayhem.

An eye for an eye leaves two men blind, how is this beneficial to anyone? I dont get it. With this mentality we live in a world full of blind people, the blind leading the blind, in fact that is the world we live in today and I simply propose that we try another way because what we have done up to this point has gotten us nowhere and its time to entertain the idea that we have been wrong all this time.

I dont understand why someone who has compassion for others is creepy, dont you think that is a problem that you see me that way. I dont agree with you and I think your way of thinking is sort of dangerous but I dont find you creepy or anything.

Glen Beck is creepy, I am not creepy.

He's Hot! LOL __________________

In Buddhism there is the notion of "skillful means". The idea as I understand it is that in any situation there is the right or perfect action. If you have skillful means, you always perform exactly the right action at exactly the right moment. And all of your actions make the world better, end suffering and increase happiness. Of course for normal people this is merely an ideal to be imagined or perhaps sought after. And maybe, if you are skillful enough, reality itself will tremble in your presence.

So I ask the question, is the death penalty an example of skillful means? It is the law in Virginia currently; that much is clear. But does it make the world a better place? How would we decide?

And if in fact we were to discover (for example by scientific research) that this is a non-skillful practice, why would we continue to do it?

Originally Posted by NativeGirl so Sam is Dangerous to you??

Sam is ignorant and I have compassion for those who are ignorant. We are all ignorant, a few of us are aware of our ignorance and that perhaps sets us apart a little but the fact remains that it is this ignorance that leads to things like what Sam has done because he (we) dont understand how things really are and how things really work. Sam was just a actor in a karmic drama that had to play itself out, the victims were also suffering from the effects of their own karma and those who have hatred and anger towards Sam will further suffer the consequences of the karma that comes a long with that. And it will continue on and on and on until we realize how ignorant we are and decide to do something about it and the first step is to stop letting your emotions control you and start having compassion for everyone else who hasnt yet learned how to do that.

Sam should be puinished but I also think we should have some compassion for him, his ignorance led him down this path and to me thats really sad, the whole thing is sad because it doesnt have to be this way but everyone just continues on and its wash, rinse and repeat.

Hey Pax - Glenn Beck is OFF LIMITS man!!!!

OK, just kidding again, but I can't help but love quirky conservatives and I think he's really funny. Now you think I'm creepy I know; I am.

I can understand the Buddist path, I really can and I wish everyone could be a pacifist etc. and the collective consciousness could really change our world. Then the realist in me thanks all of you who can because I know you are essential and keeps searching...

I am just thankful that a great deal of information has been shared here and I hope everyone can continue to agree to disagree; even though it's frustrating at times...ego and all.
__________________

I think arguing religion is like beating a dead horse. Everyone will think what they always have and everyone thinks they are right. So it's pretty pointless. I'm a Christian and we believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. They are not all the same person in my religion, but in some christian religions they are. So you see even in the same religious category they don't all believe the same. It's pretty debatable.
Either way, to debate religion just causes problems so I try to steer clear of it.
I don't care what anyone else believes. No offense guys.
Sorry if this comes off wrong to anyone. I mean no offense to any of you or your religions.
Edited to say that I don't mean I don't care what you believe in general. I do care about your opinions. Yeah maybe all that came out wrong.

Yea its not personal for me so as long as everyone else can just approach this as adult discussion then we are ok because I dont take any of this personal no matter how heated it gets tomorrow we come back here and we do our thing and its a new day you know? No big deal to me at all really.

I am thankful to have you all to have these heated discussions with, its fun to see how others feel about these matters and in the end our differences are what make us all special.

An eye for an eye is in the OT in Hebrew as ayin tahat ayin which means if you injure someone's eye then you are required to give them your eye as compensation. The original Hebrew DOES NOT indicate this as capital punishment, the english translated bibles have taken it the WRONG WAY, it is simply a way the Jews explained what we in modern times would refer to as compensatory damages. It does NOT mean that if you stab someone in the eye they have a right to stab you in the eye back, this is NOT what is intended by the phrase ayin tahat ayin in Jewish tradition it is simply an easy way of explaining what happens when you commit a TORT against another person you are required to compensate them for that tort.

Has nothing at ALL to do with capital punishment and I find it amusing that people who dont understand Hebrew believe it does, in fact it had nothing at all to do with CRIMINAL LAW in the Jewish tradition and was in fact a reference to CIVIL TORT and compensatory damages. This is the reason we dont read the bible literally and understand it is allegory, metaphor etc, just simple ways of explaining complex ideas.

Originally Posted by claudicici I do think that "bloodlust",that anger you feel for someone that hurt you or someone you love is completely natural and understandable,however I don't think it's something you should feel good about....that's what I think: of course people are going to feel that way but shouldn't you have the sense to say it's not right to feel that way?...am I not putting myself on the same level with someone that commits a crime of passion if I want to make myself feel better by hurting somone else?....that's another thing where I think "dark" art or music helps,to me it really helps when I feel that way... oh,yeah and "the eye for an eye" quote to my knowledge is not in the christian bible even though many christians seem to feel that way,it's in the koran...

Your emotions should never dictate your response to anything, that is weakness not strength. Real and lasting strength is learning to keep your emotions out of the decision making process and not letting them control you, people who act on emotions can be easily manipulated and are weak and easy targets.

Originally Posted by claudicici I don't understand why in the world someone would have the need to have a gun in their home. I had a gun put to my head once.It's not a good feeling. My cousin was shot by her husband and he shot himself during a domestic dispute thing....if the gun wouldn't have been around,I doubt he would have grabbed a knife and stabbed her and himself ,it's so much easier to pull a trigger....I also can't handle the thought of all these guns being in homes with children.... if you want something for self defense a taser works just as well....

I can understand that and I am a gun owner but not so much for self defense but I believe an armed populace is the last and only real defense against government tyranny, now if we get rid of all guns ok but as long as the authorities have them then we need them too to keep the balance of power in check. Its just how it is, I dont like it either.

Originally Posted by claudicici I like talking about religion and politics and stuff like that,I think it's important and interesting to hear other opinions....doesn't mean anyone is going to change theirs but might get a better understanding where the other person is coming from....

I guess I can understand where you are coming from to like to discuss those things, but I even hate to talk politics. I guess I just don't like confrontation.
I'm a peaceful kinda gal and like people no matter their religious or political background. If you're cool with me I'm cool with you. I try to be open-minded and understanding no matter what. Not saying that discussing those things isn't being open-minded because it is. I just try to be open-minded peacefully. Not to mention, I've never liked people to push their religion on me, so I just avoid it all together because I don't want someone to feel the same about me.
I'm not implying that any of you guys do that, just telling you my approach on things.
See I can't even make a simple reply about it without feeling that someone may be offended.
Yeah not a good topic for me. I like talking about murderers more. haha!
Edited to say I think it's a psychological thing for me. I have a terrible memory of a drunken debate that went horribly wrong.

I have really mixed feelings about the DP, LWOP and rehabilitation. I watch a lot of the prison shows on MSNBC (for example) and truly do believe that, given the chance many (not all, not even most) people can change. I do believe that much of a person's behavior is from nurture (or lack thereof), while people with true mental illness suffer from nature, not nurture.

If those people with mental illness are stabilized on meds that set the brain straight, great ... however, they are very likely to not take the meds on an ongoing basis once they are not in prison or a half-way house, due to the expense, pressure from peers, confusion based on alcohol/drugs induced confusion of when it is time to take the meds, etc.

The biggest issue, of course is nurture. Many, many people in prison are there because of where, how, with who and under what circumstances they are raised. Lots of kids never have a chance, unless they are an astoundingly strong person to start.

What I do love is to see the work and animal related rehab programs in prison. Many of these felons have never had the opportunity to learn a trade, much less have had anyone pat them on the back for reading a book, carrying on a converstation instead of an argument or have any sense of worth. I adore seeing the toughest of guys with muscles to 'there' and a bazillon tattoos cuddling with a kitty out on the yard, or the inmates that raise shelter dogs so that they dogs can have a second chance at life, just as the inmate does. Watching the inmate take the dog around the grounds, chatting with other inmates they would never even look in the eye, because the other race/gang member wants a lick on the cheek from the dogs, or speaking to the guards about the latest food they are using to help the dogs upset tummy is a beautiful thing!

My interest in religions starts with the idea that no human religion has it quite right, but that none of them have it entirely wrong either. I include Buddhism in this although I find that they have more right than most other religions and they also teach practical methods of living which some others do not. IMO. YMMV.

The Truth pervades even the most perverse beliefs and philosophies.

Mathematics is magic that works.

The universe is waking up.

Love is the answer.

Originally Posted by PAXIMUS Ok, ok I am clearly losing the argument and you are right but how about this......ummm I just like them for target shooting...

Oh well, now we are talking. But also, shooting is just plain fun.

Especially automatic weapons. I got to fire a variety of weapons during a visit to Fort Benning back in the 90s.

Also, there used to be this place outside of Vegas where you could shoot machine guns while being served martinis by girls in bikinis. This was probably a bad idea.

Originally Posted by southernvagirl .........When the govt stepped in and told parents how NOT to be parents ie:spanking,,,,,parents all over this country have been held hostage by their own kids.....Don't tell me different,,I have seen time and time and time again,,,where the parent have said if I try to discipline my child "I will go to jail",,,and the kids use this against them..........People,,there is a big,,big,,big difference in spanking a child for bad actions and child abuse.....Instead of parenting, they give their child "meds" to calm them down or make them passive....What do they think will happen when that child goes off the meds.......When something bad happens and anyone,,young or old,,is the guilty party,,most people nowadays wants to blame everyone and everything as a reason it happened.......The biggest cause ,I've heard people want to use is the bi-polar excuse,,,,,WHAT?????? Children need to learn,,if they do bad things,,,there WILL be consequences....Setting in a corner for a "time out" or taking their fav video game is NOT constructive parenting in my book,,,

Oh boy.
I only spanked my son (who, btw Tapu, is 21) maybe 3 times ever. I saved it for when it REALLY counted, like crossing the street without looking.

You say the kids need consequences they can understand ... mine understood taking away a favorite video game (your example) much better than hitting him.

How can I teach him not to hit by hitting him?

Let's not talk about medicating people in such general terms, OK? I didn't want my son to be passive, I wanted him to be happy. Turns out he had ADD and OCD ... without meds, he held himself together all day at school (pretty miracleous), but then totally fell apart at home. He, and I, were not happy. Meds helped a lot to make him a happy, functioning person. It was up to HIM to decide when to go off meds and in his mid-teens he decided he was ready to deal with the implications emotionally and physically himself, without the help of meds. He has succeeded wonderfully. He needs some reminders, both from himself and from us periodically, but overall he is a super wonderful guy.

We raised him with manners, courtesy and responsibility ... and he continues to show all three on a daily basis. It takes parents that are willing to say no, parents that are willing to follow-through EVERY time and parents that are involved with their children all the way through young-adulthood.

Intensive parenting is harder than h3ll, but it works.

The biggest and most common parenting mistake I see in friends, relatives and even my own parents to some extent is threatening the child with this or that and then not following through with it. Do that ONE TIME and you have pretty lost the childs respect forever and you will never again be able to be an effective parent. If you tell the kid this will happen if you do that you better make sure it happens when that time comes.

Originally Posted by dangrsmind Angry Jesus is Satanism's head of marketing.

I thought that was Pat Robertson

The biggest mistake I've seen people make is forgetting to make sure that their children knew they loved them no matter what. Especially hard with teens.

And yeah, also, don't say it if you don't mean it.